Why it's hard to make any money out of ski building!

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COsurfer
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Post by COsurfer »

Thats a great deal. Market rate here in Denver is $.75/lb for new structural steel.
baumannuli
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i got a plan

Post by baumannuli »

here it is...the skis (first pair) i just made are great...now i make a pair for my grandson who is 6... and let him be my salesman ... i can see him on the lift now, kids always want what the other kid has..i know his friends will want em...hahaha
ski the east
cuddy
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Ski Business

Post by cuddy »

So has anybody looked into business insurance or what you need to get going? I will have my skis in the local ski shop here in Glenwood Springs, CO this winter and am wondering what (if any) insurance I am going to need. Also has anyone been fighting the fact that they are building out of their garage in a "residential" zoned area and getting you business license is troubling? Any info would be greatly appreciated. And yes, you can do this for a living......you just need a second job too. :)
Cheers,
matt
www.meierskis.com
COsurfer
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Post by COsurfer »

5g-10g's depending on how much you sell and you can't touch bindings or even offer to sell them. Bindings are the most litigious aspect of ski/snowboard liability. A more economical method is to have buyer sign a waiver prepared by an attorney. The problem with that is will your buyers be concerned with signing the waiver? If you are selling skis/boards you must have some sort of protection or you could lose any assets you have if you are successfully sued. I know Happy Monkey has posted a waiver on here somewhere. Best of luck!
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

I looked into liability insurance at the beginning of the year. It was about 3g for me. But I don't know how much protection that got me dollar wise. Since it's still a hobby for me I just want to make a few bucks on the side and it's not affordable. I asked my insurance co. if there was an additional rider I could buy for my homeowners to get some level of protection and the answer is no.

I looked at setting up an LLC. It simplifies the tax issue but not sure if it gets you much protection, if any, on your assets (house, etc). It's cheap to set up LLC. Massachusetts lets you do it online through their gov't website. I'll probably go the LLC route and worry about liability ins later.... I know it's risky..... A waiver is a good option. But this is the USA, anyone can sue you for just about anything. Even if you win you still have lawyers to pay. They always win.

And then there is a zoning issue. In my town I don't think anyone would care or complain and the tax rate is the same for residential and business zone.

But IMO best bet is to run the numbers.
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Brazen
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Post by Brazen »

Yeah. Product liability is way expensive...I'm actually building some bindings right now to for hard boots. I will be #2 on the list of people that get sued when someone does something stupid. I can't afford liability insurance, every penny I have is buried in equipment and materials...so I have to live with the Sword of Damocles for the first year. Each and every set of bindings and board goes out with a waiver. Period.
"86% of the time it works 100% of the time".
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Head Monkey
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Post by Head Monkey »

Brazen wrote:Yeah. Product liability is way expensive...I'm actually building some bindings right now to for hard boots. I will be #2 on the list of people that get sued when someone does something stupid. I can't afford liability insurance, every penny I have is buried in equipment and materials...so I have to live with the Sword of Damocles for the first year. Each and every set of bindings and board goes out with a waiver. Period.
Make that #1.

Oh man, I can’t recommend against this strongly enough. If you’re going to do bindings then you need real liability insurance, and an S-Corp at a minimum (run properly with proper record keeping, accounting, etc.). Even then, you’re in danger. A waiver isn’t enough here. A waiver works well to cover your ass for simple boards and skis, mostly because there’s never been a lawsuit in the US about failure of an actual board/ski, and the failure mode of these things is pretty darn reasonable. I.e., it’s unlikely to come up. Bindings are a different story.

Your home, all your assets, and your future earnings are at stake here. Seriously.

For an unfortunate example, search around on “bomber binding lawsuit”. In this case, these were not bindings that Bomber made, but simply bindings they resold. They didn’t even mount the bindings. They were sacked with this for 3+ years… in the end I believe it worked out okay for them because it was silly for them to have been targeted in the first place, but it still cost them real hard-earned money. Imagine if it had been their bindings that had failed. Now imagine it’s you.

I’d like to say I’m not trying to scare you here, but I am. Start with just boards… if your successful, then add bindings later once you can afford the liability insurance. If you really have your heart set on bindings now, at least try to contact Fin at Bomber and see if he’ll talk to you about the case, insurance, waivers, etc.
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
jvangelder
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Post by jvangelder »

I just got product liability insurance for my own (not customer) designs, under 100 boards per year, its just under 1k a year.

For thoes of you who have quotes, are you going to an independent insurer or directly to a company?

-Jacob
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

jvangelder wrote:I just got product liability insurance for my own (not customer) designs, under 100 boards per year, its just under 1k a year.

For thoes of you who have quotes, are you going to an independent insurer or directly to a company?

-Jacob
Mine was an independent ins co that we have our autos, home through.
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Brazen
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Post by Brazen »

Mike, first off, just let me say thank you for being the voice of reason...seriously, this is nothing but sound advice. (edit: changed Fyou to thank you) :D

However, having climbed up high enough into the tree to see how people are going to screw me has kept me from doing WAY too many things in my life and frankly I've just had enough...I'm not going to let MBA's and JD's ruin my life anymore. I'm done with things being so expensive to do here because of liability concerns that we are ALL going to starve while looking for someone else to blame. I have made sure that these are beyond reproach, they are machined from 6061T6 billet aluminum and are tested in ways that will never be experienced in normal conditions. Ever. Just because some ahole decides to run into a tree, doesn't mean it has to be anyone's fault but his. I think that finding someone else at fault has to stop for all of us. We need to be productive. We need to put better ideas into place. We need to employ and care about our friends and families. We can not continue to live in fear of the "what ifs". I've just had enough of it, I've carefully hidden what little I have left and I'm going for it...just for love of the sport.
Last edited by Brazen on Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"86% of the time it works 100% of the time".
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Brazen
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Post by Brazen »

Had to double post again.So glad this place is fixed, right?
"86% of the time it works 100% of the time".
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

At one time "What If" was used by HP as a slogan and made them famous and it was a very catchy phrase. A term to invoke innovation, thought, problem solving, and originality. Now it seems to keep folks in check... maybe it's the economy, fear of the unknown, fear of failure, IDK.

Brazen - I applaud you going for it. Wish you the best of luck. From what I've seen of the stuff you've made so far, I have no doubt in the quality of your work and workmanship.

Mike - As always, excellent advice. The best anyone can do is to get all the facts possible and then decide what to do.

Unfortunately the newspaper/media is full of frivolous lawsuits that either entertain us or just make people fearful.... Ever read the label on a step ladder? btw - hot coffee is hot, don't use your lawn mower to trim the hedges, and your kid won't become a serial killer if he doesn't get a prize in the box of Cracker Jacks ( at least I don't think so ) :)
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Head Monkey
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Post by Head Monkey »

Brazen, I’m glad you took the advice in the spirit it was intended. You’ve got the info and you’ve decided your level of risk tolerance, and you’re going for it. Very cool. I can’t wait to see what you produce!!
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
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Brazen
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Post by Brazen »

Yeah, Mike...thanks for not only this advice, but your constant flow of credible sage council on many things. You rock :)
"86% of the time it works 100% of the time".
knightsofnii
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Post by knightsofnii »

get stoked on this!

for the price of one of those machines, a lot more work, a bit more trial and error, and a lot of love, we're making better shit than they are!!!!

Plus we dont have to buy 5000 skis to meet any minimum quantity then have to flood the market with them!
Doug
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