CNC machines

For discussions related to designing and making ski/snowboard-building equipment, such as presses, core profilers, edge benders, etc.

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COsurfer
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

CNC machines

Post by COsurfer »

Hey All, I am pretty damn excited because in a few days I will have my CNC machine up and running! I did a ton of research on these things and spent many hours going the wrong direction and spending money I didn’t need to spend. I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread on peoples CNC experiences. As ski/snowboard builders we all probably have that DIY bug. However, my new philosophy is I want to make snowboards and not spend my free time learning to be a CNC geek. Here are a few of my experiences/lessons learned. I preface my findings on the fact I have no mechanical engineering and minimal electronics knowledge. A great knowledge base for CNC’s is www.CNCzone.com.
There are many options when it comes to building or buying a CNC. First is price, they can range from $3,000 to hundreds of thousands. I first started my research on DIY CNC kits. I zeroed in on the Black Toe CNC: http://buildyourcnc.com/blackToe4x8.aspx. This is the most affordable kit I found. The good: it’s cheap and it is a 4’x8’ table. Approx. build cost: $3,000
The bad: a full MDF structure (these machines are under a lot of stress), the electronics looked a bit complicated (check out the installation videos, they seemed a bit scary to me), you still need to build a very sturdy table. The chain/wheel sprockets looked a little cheap to me.
The second DIY table I checked out was Joes's hybrid CNC: http://www.joescnc.com/themachines-hybrid.php. Approx. build cost: $4,000
Good: Has a lot of good feedback on www.CNCzone.com, the frame and X beam are aluminum; you can upgrade to get a full aluminum system.
Bad: the gantry is MDF, you have to pay $100 for his drawings and to access his forum that has all of the details of the build(which I did), its only 4’x4’, I wanted a 4’x8’ and was under the impression that the forum would give easy directions on how to modify the size to a 4’x8’ table. The forum didn’t really give good details on how to build the 4x8. I am sure if I wanted to spend many many hours scouring the forum I could have figured it out. My issue is I want to build snowboards and not become an expert at CNC machines.
Those were the only two true DIY kits that I found that offered a fairly complete kit. Maybe someone has experience with other kits?
I did a little bit of research on the BEAR CNC http://www.wedmfg.com/Bear-Home.html. Good: A good machine for a good price, the builder is a member of skibuilders.com. The bad: the lead time was longer then I wanted to wait for.
If you want to buy a new full aluminum 4’x8’ CNC machine the minimum price I could find is around $7,500. On top of that you still need to pay shipping, software and endless upgrade charges! That wasn’t an option for me because my budget was around $5,000.

I did come across a company here in Denver that allows you to use their CNC machine. Actually, it’s a full wood and metal shop that you pay a membership for. It is an awesome place! The only issue I had is the owner didn’t want me to make the CNC a production machine for my business. The machine is a first come first serve with no schedule so it would be difficult to be productive on his machine. It is still probably a good alternative to anyone who doesn’t have the money to buy a CNC machine.
I ended up buying my machine off craigslist for $3,500 but missing some hardware and software that cost me $1,200. This machine was $12,000 new so I think I got a pretty good deal.
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Software/Computer: There are 2 types of software you will need. The first controls the CNC machine. I thought I could use my laptop but it turns out laptops are not a good choice for CNC controllers because of their lack of port space. I ended up buying a good used computer for $200 that had 1 gig, 2 PCI slots and WIFI. I tried to go the DIY route again with the software. I ended up buying MACH3 for $175. Once I downloaded the installation guide I realized I was way over my head. Once again, I could have buried my head in the manual and figured it out but it would have taken me many weeks if not months to get the software working correctly. The issue is you have to calibrate the machine with this software and it’s not an easy job. So I ended up buying WINCNC for $1,200. The good: full support, the salesman took over my computer online and completely calibrated my CNC in a few hours. He was a great support to answer all of my questions. The bad: its $1,000 more than MACH3.
The second software you need is a CAM software. This software takes your CAD or drawings and coverts them into G-code. G-code is the language your CNC understands. I haven’t bought this software yet and hoping someone on here has some experience with a good choice. I don’t want to waste any more money! It was recommended to me to use either Vectric’s cut 3D/vcarve or visual mill, both cost around $900. Does anyone have any experience with either of these software packages in respect to snowboard cores? What programs are people using to accurately profile their cores?

If anyone has additional questions let me know.
FYI-slopes open in Colorado in about 4-6 weeks! Sweet!
jvangelder
Posts: 181
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: Southern NH

Post by jvangelder »

Nice looking router!

We are just wrapping up a JGRO style build, however were swaping it over to homebrew leaner bearings, we went with nema 34 motors instead of the 23's, running 8A @ 37volts half stepping with rack and pinon, we get 780ipm cutting speeds on our 15" of X travel, hopping for around 1000imp in our 90" of Y

My full time job is a cnc machinest in a jobshop. I bought a copy of BobCad V23 maby 8 months ago and it will easily do ski/snowboard cores for both 3dimensional profiling and shaping. You can get bobcad for much less than 900, ive got my copy of v23 Pro w/usb dongle and training cd's for less than half that. I use bobcad daily for work, its no mastercam however for the price you cant beat it


What are you doing with that copy of Mach3? I just have a trial version right now as the router is in a constent state of upgrade, not usage, and some day when were done re-inventing it i will need a full version as i dont want to setup another pc for EMC

Whats your thoughts of WINCNC, id never hurd of it untill this post


-Jacob
COsurfer
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Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

Post by COsurfer »

Thanks for the info jvangelder. You must get better pricing then thier listed price of $3,495 for V23 pro. I have heard good things about Bobcad but the price is too expensive!
jvangelder
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:41 pm
Location: Southern NH

Post by jvangelder »

They will do around $3-400 for v23 at times, no way id ever pay 3k for bobcad, at that point id start financing mastercam

Download the demo for bobcad, its fully functional just wont let you post g-code, it doesn't have a steep learning curve per say, just spend some time reading and it all makes sense

-Jacob
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Head Monkey
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Post by Head Monkey »

Just get the standard version, not the pro version. Not sure of the price for standard these days, but you should be looking at less than $1k.

I started out with BobCADCAM back with v18 many years ago. I think the most recent version I have is 20. Honestly, I've never been really happy with it, but it's likely your best bet... it's cheap and works well enough. You can do cores and molds with it for sure. For getting started it’s very reasonable for the price, but if you end up doing a lot of CNC work you will likely outgrow it in a few years.

In the interest of full disclosure, though, I should say that I got pretty fed up with BobCADCAM for making cores, bases, etc. many years ago and now only use it for one-off non-snowboard projects. I ended up writing my own software called MonkeyCAM to take a parametric description of a snowboard or ski and generate all of the tool paths instantly. Since closing down Happy Monkey I’ve considered cleaning it up (it’s pretty finicky right now) and putting it out there for you guys to use for free. But don’t hold your breath… that would take a few months of off and on work even if I started right now…

If you’re interested I have some blog posts on CNC, one of which is about how I cut cores: http://www.happymonkeysnowboards.com/MonkeyBlog/?cat=51

Nice job getting such a great deal on that machine. Good luck!
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
COsurfer
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

Post by COsurfer »

Thanks Head Monkey! That is some great info as usual! I ended up purchasing Vcarve Pro from Vecrtric.com for $600. It allows me to do all the planing, fluting and cutting for a snowboard core.
Anvil
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:15 am
Location: Durango, Co

Name of shop in denver

Post by Anvil »

Cosurfer,

What is the name of that metal and wood workshop in denver. That is exactly what i am looking for.

Thanks,
COsurfer
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

Post by COsurfer »

Club workshop: http://www.clubworkshop.com/. The place is awesome, a full wood and metal fab shop. I think I still may join just for access to the metal fab shop.
jono
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:26 am
Location: denver

Post by jono »

CoSurfer,
Like you I have a CNC machine that is finally in my shop but not quite ready to go.
Are people willing to share some of their .dxf files on this forum?
I would definitely like to use/adapt the files of other ski builders.
I've made some dxf files for base shapes in snocad but I am completely unskilled at using cad software to create dxf files for base molds and core profiles.
Anyway, it is good to know there is someone else in Denver that is just getting started with a CNC machine.
COsurfer
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

Post by COsurfer »

Hey Jono, I would be more then happy to share my files once I get them up complete however my files would be in Gcode. I generate them from snocad and import them to my CAM software that outputs Gcode. Are you making boards or skis? I just finished my first successful core today on my CNC.
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CNC's are just plain cool!
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Now just waiting on materials to be delivered this week for my first few boards. Good to hear someone else has a CNC here in Denver. What part of town is your space? My warehouse is off Harlan and I-70.
Jekul
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Post by Jekul »

Jono and Cosurfer,

I have access to Autodesk Inventor and Autocad but no access to a good CNC machine for ski making. I would be more than willing to trade and make some cad files for some help making the forms for my skis? PM me if interested. I'll have lots of time this weekend if you're thinking of a specific shape.

Let me know.
hugocacola
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:00 am

Post by hugocacola »

COsurfer wrote:Hey Jono, I would be more then happy to share my files once I get them up complete however my files would be in Gcode. I generate them from snocad and import them to my CAM software that outputs Gcode. Are you making boards or skis? I just finished my first successful core today on my CNC.
Image
CNC's are just plain cool!
Image
Now just waiting on materials to be delivered this week for my first few boards. Good to hear someone else has a CNC here in Denver. What part of town is your space? My warehouse is off Harlan and I-70.


hi guys

i have my cnc machine but for me its a pain in the ass to do some profile with it...i wondering to know what cam you use, if you do some extrude (cam Tool) on the snowcad profile and then do some automatic tool
, i just like to know how you guys do it.

Sorry my english..


Best regards
COsurfer
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

Post by COsurfer »

Hey hugocacola,

I export snowcad files as .dxf to Vcarve pro(www.Vectric.com). I can open the .dxf file in Vcarve and generate any tool paths I need, including a fluting pattern that tapers my boards. The program is super simple. I then save that file as a .tap(gcode) and export it to my CAM program(WINCNC).

The key with software is finding a program that allows you to "flute". Fluting is the process of tapering your tool from one elevation to a another. I use a 1" clear cut router bit to do my fluting.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks, Adam
hugocacola
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:00 am

Post by hugocacola »

hey co surfer

thnks for your reply, actualy i am using Mastercam, and i had download the trial version from vetric but i still not capable to understand how it works, if you can do a movie or something trying to explain how do you set the areas to fluting etc...
i know it could be very simple but i am completly away from it...

Best regards
COsurfer
Posts: 357
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Location: Evergreen, CO

Post by COsurfer »

Unfortunately, I dont have a good video camera to demonstrate what I do. I learned it all from the video demonstrations on www.vectric.com. Its pretty simple to learn if you watch their videos.

Here is a video from vectric explaining the fluting tool: http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/ ... lutes.html

Specifically for snowboards I import .dxf files and draw straight lines on the areas I want to slope my board at 1" intervals because my bit is a 1-1/4". The program allows me to enter the start depth and end depth of the cut.

I can send you my vcarve file and you could use the preview tool path to see exactly how I program all of my cuts. PM me your email and I will send it over. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks, Adam
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