Inserts (repeat topic)

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Bambi
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Inserts (repeat topic)

Post by Bambi »

OK - there was some discussion about inserts for mounting tele bindings a while back, but it looks like it was dated a long time ago, and doesn't quite answer my questions so here goes:

Are inserts all the same or do they vary? If they do vary what should I be looking for for mounting tele bindings?

Where can I get them?

Ta,

B.

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littleKam
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Post by littleKam »

Inserts vary. I bought my inserts from CAMAX and you can specify any insert from them. Typically you tell them the thread size, height, and quantity. You can get their contact here: http://skibuilders.com/other/camax.shtm.

For mounting tele bindings (G3 and O2) I use either a M5 (metric system) or 1/4-20 (english system) thread. Metric is the standard for the ski and snowboard industries but I have a hard time finding metric screws for some reason. So I go with 1/4-20 thread simply because 1/4-20 screws are readily available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

For the height, you want to make sure your inserts aren't taller than your core. So I prefer them to be about 8-10mm in height. You can read this page to get an understanding of what I'm trying to explain: http://www.skibuilders.com/howto/skicon/inserts.shtml
- Kam S Leang (aka Little Kam)

G-man
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Post by G-man »

Bambi

I agree with littleKam regarding machine screw size availability. I also use 1/4-20's. However, the screw holes on almost all bindings must be drilled out a littlet to allow for the use of 1/4" screws. I don't mind drilling out my own bindings, but I made a pair of skis for a friend and he wasn't to keen about drilling out his. So, I'm considering going with the M5's so other friends won't be reluctant to try out the skis... I don't want to provide both bindings and skis for all of my friends. I'm also just sorta waiting to see what K2 does with the 7TM binding hole pattern now that they have the ownership rights to it. Will they ditch their insert pattern of the last 3 years (G3 hole pattern) in favor of the current 7TM pattern?.. or will they revamp the 7TM to the G3 pattern (I'm a 7TM fan).

Because the thickness of the ski varies in the binding mounting area (due to profiling), I use as many as 4 different length sizes of inserts in one ski. Yes, I'm a bit obsessive at times, but too long or too short can create some problems... just another thing to consider.

G-man

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Head Monkey
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Post by Head Monkey »

Regarding metric screws: in the Seattle area, Tacoma Screw is your friend: http://www.tacomascrew.com/ Elsewhere, McMaster-Carr has any screw you’ll ever need… you just have to buy a bunch. Both are way better options for metric screws than Home Depot… you’ll find out really fast that Home Depot is charging your 4x for anything in a little package :)
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X

Bambi
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Post by Bambi »

M5 it is - I can get bolts from the Uk if necessary as I travel over there regularly.

So for the height - I am assuming that it is not a problem to have them a bit shorter than the thickness of your core - you just sink them further in from the bottom right? I guess that means that you have to put some filler in the holes afterwards to make them flush.

Thanks,

B.

Buuk
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Post by Buuk »

What do you think about this kind of insert? Will the hex hole in the bottom be a problem? They have a M6 hole inside (or larger) and are at least 10 mm high.

Image

Also please tell me if any of you needs metric screws. It's the standard system in the Netherlands, so they are easy to get.

Buuk

Bambi
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Post by Bambi »

I spoke to the guy at CAMAX - he supplies 2 'standard' threads: 1/2 20s and M6. M6 should be a bit thinner than a 1/4 20 correct? (my understanding if imperial units is terrible). So would an M6 fit through most bindings without drilling?

He does have a few M5s left from a previous order, but they are only 7mm tall. Could I use these and just drill down 3mm from the top to them?

Alternatively does anyone else have any possible sources?

Thanks in advance,

B.

Buuk
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Post by Buuk »

I just found out that most alpine bindings have M5 holes.
At the moment I'm contacting TDS in Austria. They make cores and inserts.

Buuk
Make things as simple as possible, but not too simple

G-man
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Post by G-man »

Hey Bambi

Here's approximately how the sizes compare:

Imperial:
1/4 x 20 = .250 inch
M6 = approx .237 inch

Metric:
1/4 x 20 = approx. 6.5mm
M6 = 6mm

With all of the bindings that I've mounted on my skis (I use 1/4 x 20 inserts), I've had to drill out a fair amount of material before the machine screw will fit. I'm pretty sure that the M6 would not fit without drilling, also. Too bad that CAMAX isn't making M5's as a standard offering. I'm not sure that very many people want to drill out their bindings, even if the larger screw is stronger.

I, personally, probably wouldn't use the 7mm long M5's if it means that you will have to drill 3mm or more to get to them. Drilling that deep will most likely expose some bare wood in the core, which if not sealed really well, could lead to big time moisture problems. Also, the usable thread on a 7mm insert is only about 3mm (subtract about 2mm for the bottom flange, 1mm for a thread void at the bottom of the bore, and little loss at the top where the magnetic insert sits). You'll want a little space between the tip of your screw and the bottom of the insert bore. So, in the end analysis, a 7mm insert doesn't offer a whole lot of actual usable thread surface area.

G-man

Bambi
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Post by Bambi »

:-(

What a pain. Buuk - let me know if you have any luck with your contacts in Europe.

If anyone in the US is interested in M5 inserts perhaps we can club together to make an order big enout to pursuede CAMAX to make some M5s.

If not then I guess I'l be either drilling out my bindings or buying quite a few.

B.

G-man
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Post by G-man »

I could go for about 400 M5's in various lengths from 7 to 12mm. If they all had to be one length, I'd probably go with 12mm and just trim 'em down for the thinner ski sections (like at the heel blocks). I think CAMAX sells the little magnetic insert plugs so that they can be replaced after trimming an insert.

G-man

Bambi
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Post by Bambi »

Ok - that makes 3 of us, but I think that we would need to make an order of approx 10000 to be of interest to CAMAX. I will talk to them about the cost of a minimum order, but in the mean time if anyone else is interested then please let me know how many inserts you would like so that I can get a sense for how big a combined order would be.

B.

hafte
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Post by hafte »

I could go for 100 of them as long as the price is good. You are talking about the ones with the magnetic inserts/caps? I would prefer the longer 10- 12mm inserts

Hafte

Bambi
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Post by Bambi »

Yes magnetic caps, M5 thread and probably 10 - 12mm in length.

I think that they will cost of the order 30cents per insert, but this will clearly depend on the order size.

G-man
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Post by G-man »

Hi hafte,

The last inserts that I got from CAMAX were 25 cents each. The quality is very good and they do come with the magnetic cap. I have a pretty nice machine shop and I've thought a time or two about making my own inserts, but they'd cost me about $10.00 apiece to make myself and the quality wouldn't be nearly as good. I honestly don't understand how the CAMAX folks can make those inserts and sell them for a quarter each... but I'm awfully glad they do.


G-man

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