Kam, kelvin-
I see you have changed from Duratec to West System? Why?
Mostly posting to see if anyone has done any tests with different epoxy’s
I’m in the process of pricing online sales but only have experience with West System because it’s locally available.
Lets talk about epoxy
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Little kam uses the duratec stuff.
Big kam and I use the west systems, basically because it is readily available. It seems pretty high quality and we haven't had any problems with it. Our skis have been pretty durable. The delaminations we've had are due to material preparation and probably not the epoxy.
There is probably better stuff out there, but we haven't had a chance to try many of them.
-Kelvin
Big kam and I use the west systems, basically because it is readily available. It seems pretty high quality and we haven't had any problems with it. Our skis have been pretty durable. The delaminations we've had are due to material preparation and probably not the epoxy.
There is probably better stuff out there, but we haven't had a chance to try many of them.
-Kelvin
I use Duratec because it's easy for me to get and because the suppliers told me that quite a few local companies use Duratec epoxy for their snowboards and skateboards.
It's less expensive than the West System but then again it doesn't include a dispensing system like West System's.
Your best bet would be to contact the fiberglass suppliers, such as Vectorply, and ask what they recommend.
It's less expensive than the West System but then again it doesn't include a dispensing system like West System's.
Your best bet would be to contact the fiberglass suppliers, such as Vectorply, and ask what they recommend.
- Kam S Leang (aka Little Kam)
-
MonkeyButt
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:11 pm
I was just wondering what sort of qualities one would look for in epoxy and if the stuff i am looking at will work. My skibuilding buddy has located a couple places
US Composites (Kit Number: EPOX-635413 - $48):
http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html
Mr. Epoxy (Kit Number: POX35413 - $54)
http://www.mrfiberglass.com/mrfiberglass_epoxy.html
Any thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
US Composites (Kit Number: EPOX-635413 - $48):
http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html
Mr. Epoxy (Kit Number: POX35413 - $54)
http://www.mrfiberglass.com/mrfiberglass_epoxy.html
Any thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
Since I don't have a marine supplier in my area I had to source the epoxy on line as well. I found the bet pricing, service, and guidance to the most appropriate epoxy at QCM. They have numerous products and after listening to my needs directed me to a product that Ride snowboards uses in their layups.
The proporties you are looking for are:
Appropriate pot life for your application (work time before the glue starts to harden)
Appropriate cure time (how long the ski needs to stay in the press)
viscosity (you don't want pasty epoxy. too watery is bad too.)
Good flexoril qualities once cured. (if it is too brittle the bonds may facture more easily under the dynamic forced applied to skis.)
Good luck. I just received my epoxy & haven't even done any test work with it yet. My mix ratio is 4:1 so I bought 1 gallon of resin and 1 quart of hardener. Details are in my journal topic
The proporties you are looking for are:
Appropriate pot life for your application (work time before the glue starts to harden)
Appropriate cure time (how long the ski needs to stay in the press)
viscosity (you don't want pasty epoxy. too watery is bad too.)
Good flexoril qualities once cured. (if it is too brittle the bonds may facture more easily under the dynamic forced applied to skis.)
Good luck. I just received my epoxy & haven't even done any test work with it yet. My mix ratio is 4:1 so I bought 1 gallon of resin and 1 quart of hardener. Details are in my journal topic
One thing to note is cure temp. The QCM stuff reguires a high temp cure, unless you want to leave it in the press for 3 days. If you are doing this in a garage, pay attention to the ambient temperature, since some epoxies just won't cure if it is too cold.
Kelvin
-just breifly looking at the links, it looks like those epoxies should work.
Kelvin
-just breifly looking at the links, it looks like those epoxies should work.
Great point Kelvin! I completely forgot to mention the cure temperature factor. The hardener I ended up with is slow in the pot but under heat should be about a 30 minute cure. I suspect that if you ask Roy at QCM he could direct you to a product which has a faster cure at room temp. He was very helpful in sourcing the best epoxy for me. -J
-
Head Monkey
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:53 pm
- Location: Carnation, WA
- Contact:
I've been using QCM's stuff for a couple of years now, and I'm extremely happy with it. I use EMV-049 and ECA-032. I get about a half hour of working time, and it sets in 4-6 hours at 77F. I usually cure my boards at around 105F for 6 hours to ensure consistency throughout the year.
Remember to note the difference between mixing epoxy by weight and mixing it by volume. One is right, and one is wrong for whatever epoxy you're using
Hose-man, if you mix your epoxy from QCM properly, you'll find you run out of hardner before your done with your resin...
A tip for everyone, no matter which epoxy you use: number and match your groups of resin and hardner, keep them together, and always mix and cure a small test sample before using it in a board. People sometimes make mistakes, even people who put epoxy into cans.
Remember to note the difference between mixing epoxy by weight and mixing it by volume. One is right, and one is wrong for whatever epoxy you're using
Hose-man, if you mix your epoxy from QCM properly, you'll find you run out of hardner before your done with your resin...A tip for everyone, no matter which epoxy you use: number and match your groups of resin and hardner, keep them together, and always mix and cure a small test sample before using it in a board. People sometimes make mistakes, even people who put epoxy into cans.
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
Head Monkey. I glad you are here! I'm sure that you will have a great deal of helpfull insight for many of us here. Thank you for the experience and tips on the QCM epoxies. I knew that mix ratios were figured by weight. When I ordered, I expected to receive just enough hardener for the resin I purchased. I did not specify at the time, so I may have disproportionate quantities. I will weigh my cans soon to see what I've got going on. Thanks again.
I just finished my first "successful" press of a ski today. A journal will be coming as soon as I get the second one out of the press and snap some pics.
A word about epoxy though. I used TAP Plastics brand of surfboard epoxy. This stuff is an MEKP epoxy, and I don't think I will be using it again because of some of the issues I had with it. So, here are my complaints about it:
- It sets up really quickly, and working alone it is difficult to get everything together in time. This hurried nature of the pressing caused me to make a few small mistakes which caused the finished skis to be kind of screwed up.
- Unlike most two part epoxies where you have a significant amount of each part, the MEKP stuff uses a small amount of Catalyst that comes in a squirt bottle. I found it really difficult to get consistent mixtures of catalyst. For example, on my second ski, the batch of epoxy I mixed for the lower portion of the ski began to get hard within 1 hour of being mixed, while the second batch began hardening after 2 or 3 hours. Both batches were 16 ounces, and at the time I was pretty sure that I had squirted in the correct amount marked on the side of the squeeze bottle, but clearly that didn't happen.
- From my past experience with other two part epoxies, I don't remember them being nearly as skin irritating as the MEKP stuff. As you probably know, it is really difficult to make it through a whole ski press without getting a little bit of epoxy on one's hands, and the MEKP epoxy really burns, and is really difficult to get off the hands. This causes it to hurt for a long time.
- Finally, my dad used to fiberglass our old wooden boat with West System epoxy and I remember it having a somewhat pleasant smell. To put it bluntly, MEKP smells extremely toxic, and I can't imagine it is very good for the brain cells.
Has anyone else had similar experience with these types of epoxy? I think I am going to get the QCM epoxy for my next pair of skis. It sounds like everyone is pretty happy with it.
A word about epoxy though. I used TAP Plastics brand of surfboard epoxy. This stuff is an MEKP epoxy, and I don't think I will be using it again because of some of the issues I had with it. So, here are my complaints about it:
- It sets up really quickly, and working alone it is difficult to get everything together in time. This hurried nature of the pressing caused me to make a few small mistakes which caused the finished skis to be kind of screwed up.
- Unlike most two part epoxies where you have a significant amount of each part, the MEKP stuff uses a small amount of Catalyst that comes in a squirt bottle. I found it really difficult to get consistent mixtures of catalyst. For example, on my second ski, the batch of epoxy I mixed for the lower portion of the ski began to get hard within 1 hour of being mixed, while the second batch began hardening after 2 or 3 hours. Both batches were 16 ounces, and at the time I was pretty sure that I had squirted in the correct amount marked on the side of the squeeze bottle, but clearly that didn't happen.
- From my past experience with other two part epoxies, I don't remember them being nearly as skin irritating as the MEKP stuff. As you probably know, it is really difficult to make it through a whole ski press without getting a little bit of epoxy on one's hands, and the MEKP epoxy really burns, and is really difficult to get off the hands. This causes it to hurt for a long time.
- Finally, my dad used to fiberglass our old wooden boat with West System epoxy and I remember it having a somewhat pleasant smell. To put it bluntly, MEKP smells extremely toxic, and I can't imagine it is very good for the brain cells.
Has anyone else had similar experience with these types of epoxy? I think I am going to get the QCM epoxy for my next pair of skis. It sounds like everyone is pretty happy with it.
What you have is polyester resin and not epoxy. The two terms are often used interchangeably, although incorrectly. Polyester resin is generally not as strong as epoxy and has the other problems that you mentioned. The best way to tell is that epoxies usually have mix ratios that are on the same order (e.g. 1:1, 2:1, 4:1...) whereas polyester resins have a mix ratio that is much different (e.g 1 oz : 2 drops...). With epoxies, if your mix ratio is wrong, it may not cure, with polyesters if you mix ratio is off, it'll usually still cure, but the times will be different.
wear gloves! even with epoxies.
wear gloves! even with epoxies.
-
Guest
I know this subject is being beaten to death... but i think it is a fairly complex topic so i will keep it going. My ski building partner talked to the QCM guy today and he told us what we needed and all was swell. The problem comes in with the shipping issue. Being the hardener is hazardous it needs HASMAT (spelling?) clearance which costs an extra $20-$35. This puts what would ordinarily be a relatively cheap purchase into the rather pricey range.
My question is this (probably a pretty stupid one): could one possibly mix the resin from QCM with a hardener from another system which is more readily availible locally? I kind of have strong doubts about doing it... but I guess it would save a lot of money in the end... and i am uber cheap.
My question is this (probably a pretty stupid one): could one possibly mix the resin from QCM with a hardener from another system which is more readily availible locally? I kind of have strong doubts about doing it... but I guess it would save a lot of money in the end... and i am uber cheap.
-
Guest
I think mixing different brands of resins and hardners would be asking for trouble. The chemical compositions would be different and you wouldn't know what amounts to mix.
one possibility is to use west systems , system three, or MAS epoxies which are widely distributed. Or you could try http://www.jeffcoproducts.com/ , they have distributors around the US and hopefully you live close to one.
kelvin
one possibility is to use west systems , system three, or MAS epoxies which are widely distributed. Or you could try http://www.jeffcoproducts.com/ , they have distributors around the US and hopefully you live close to one.
kelvin
Nothing wrong with being cheap. I'm sure most of us are in the same category. But I would try giving the QCM guy a call. He's a real helpful guy and seems genuinely interested in helping ski builders or snowboard builders out. I've never thought about mixing hardeners and resins together but that's a good idea!Anonymous wrote:My question is this (probably a pretty stupid one): could one possibly mix the resin from QCM with a hardener from another system which is more readily availible locally? I kind of have strong doubts about doing it... but I guess it would save a lot of money in the end... and i am uber cheap.
- Kam S Leang (aka Little Kam)