Question for all Ski/Board Builders

[skidesmond]

I curious about the people here who are building skis for other people, whether professionally or for family and friends.

This is my first year building skis and I've gotten some nice comments. Some folks have been asking me if I will make them a pair. Not quite there yet, but making progress. And building skis for others has another whole set if issues.... (damn lawyers....)

Anyhow, I've been using full wood cores. One it's a simpler process, and 2 the people I meet are seriously impressed that they are wood. Even though a high end ski/board will have a wood core, it's hardly ever seen.
Add a nice wood veneer and you have a ski/board like no other.

Wood sidewalls require a little bit more maintenance and care. And when sharpening the side metal edge it will remove the finish and wood, so it will need to be re-sealed.

So, do your customers/friends care if the ski/board has a wood sidewall? Do they prefer plastic sidewall or do they not care? Is it an opportunity to sell them "sidewall treatment oil/wax/poly" ?

[chrismp]

actually some big manufacturer's boards have wooden sidewalls...my völkl squad prime 2008 is an example.
the sidewalls are some kind of horizontally laminated wood veneer. i think it's bamboo.
it didn't come with any instructions on how to treat the sidewalls, so i guess it's not necessary.
so maybe with the right kind of wood you wouldnt need treatment either.

[Jekul]

The way I see it most ski manufacturers only warranty skis for two years, sometimes only one. And most people only ski 10-20 times per year. At that rate they're probably willing to risk water damage to the sidewall since there is very little possibility of the average skier damaging the wood sidwall.

My 2c at least.

[chrismp]

i have approx. 60-70 days of riding on my squad and there are no signs of damage on the sidewall...and i do abuse it in the park on a regular basis including rails.

[skidesmond]

Thanks for the feedback. Personally I like the wood look and it's worth the extra maintenance, if any. It's different and unusual. Just got back from skiing today on these skis:





They looked great in the sun! Let a couple people try them today. Didn't think I was gonna get them back. One guy said they skied as good as his new Rossi's. He demanded a pair on the spot. Great day of skiing!

[shopvac]

those do look great. We get comments on our wood veneer skis as well and they don't look as nice as yours do. Wood sidewalls are fine in my opinion. My brother are fairly hard on our equipment and we have had a lot less sidewall blowouts than our friends with ptex sidewalls (K2, Rossis, 4FRNT's). If the wood chips out we just stick some epoxy in there they are fine. We helmsmann them every summer also. Takes 2 minutes. I don't think we will ever switch to plastic sidewalls but we will only be building 3-6 pairs a year so we aren't big time at all. I do think it is the way to go if you are selling 100's a year like ON3P for example. I have seen a bunch of his new skis at Loveland lately and they good amazing.

[skidesmond]

Thanks Shopvac and thanks for filling me in on www.certainwood.com, they have awesome stuff. I think I'll stick w/ the all wood core for now also. Simplifies the build and looks great. Easy repair like you say. And a wood topsheet is so unique these days, people stand up and take notice, great conversation piece on the chair ride up.

The guy I let use the skis is a welder. He said anytime I need anything welded just let him know. Well, I may need some re-inforcement for the press. Might be giving him a call. We took a few runs together and told him the faster and harder you ski, the more you'll like 'em. Half way down the hill he flew by carving some nice turns w/ a huge grin on his face. We were both satisfied.

Nice to see a (small) ski builder like ON3P is making in roads into the ski business. Kind of like the micro brew companies giving people a quality choice.

So are you making skis for yourself of others. After today I'm seriuosly thinking about ski building a handful a year for others/ondemand. Assuming I get everything dialed in satisfactorily.

SKI ON!

[falls]

Hi skidesmond
With your full length wood core - are you prebending the core before you lay the ski up?

On topic: Volkl gotamas from a few years back had wood sidewalls as well. I think for me anyway when I damage the sidewalls I feel it is my fault rather than the manufacturers. I think if you provide upfront guidelines about wood sidewall care (ie. retreatment after edge sharpen etc.) then people will know what to expect from teh start.
Also you are probably going to be selling your skis locally so you could offer a service of retreating them each year/as required.
I think most people out there would not want to mask off the topsheet etc and apply the poly coat themselves. Everyone is too used to skis being non maintenance items other than maybe a wax and edge. Having said that I reckon a lot of skiers probably don't even think about chipped sidewalls etc. We are not a good representation of the general skiing public because I think we overanalysis and critique our workmanship, where others just get out there and ski and if they have a chipped sidewall probably leave it.
Having said this, reading this forum it seems that everyone with wood sidewalls says they are pretty tough even when the only sealant being used is linseed oil. It seems there would be minimal issues with sidewalls from customers. And if they are specifically buying the ski for the wood look and are made aware that this look might not be as tough as plastics then they will probably be happy to get you to do the maintenance.

[skidesmond]

Hi skidesmond
With your full length wood core - are you prebending the core before you lay the ski up?

No I do not prebend. On the pair you see here I didn't even give the core the shape of the ski until I did all the finish work after pressing. The core is a single solid piece of ash, no vertical lamination on this pair. I profiled the core w/ use a planer crib.

I think you are right on all points, especially the folks in this forum versus the general skiing/boarding population.

If I do make skis to sell it will be locally and to people I know or to friends of friends. Yes we as builders probably do over analyze and are very critcal of our work. When I point out tiny imprefections most say "So What".... But I notice it. And you are right I would inform people about the wood sidewall and required maintenance it may need and provide that service.

So far I haven't had any issues w/ wood sidewalls.

[Drew]

Another idea to protect the wooden sidewalls would be to press the skis without a topsheet, then pull them out and put a bevel on the wooden sidewalls then throw them into a vacuum bag with a topsheet which would create the protection of cap construction but with the stability of sidewall skis.

Just a thought.

[skidesmond]

Another idea to protect the wooden sidewalls would be to press the skis without a topsheet, then pull them out and put a bevel on the wooden sidewalls then throw them into a vacuum bag with a topsheet which would create the protection of cap construction but with the stability of sidewall skis.

Just a thought.

That would give a real nice look as well!

[Docta]

For what its worth, in an attempt to devellop some prototypes I have been demoing skis all season ... about 7 full days on demo skis skiing every design I have had intererest in, and I have ridden several wood and bamboo sidewalled varieties, includin my own. I find the handling superior if not superior.... there is nothing in a sidewall that improves handling of a ski, it simply protects the core, but does it protect the core from Damage, or from scrutiny by discerning buyers who will intuitively think a wood sidewall entails cheap construction and will be likely to fail....

As part of my quest I have discussed ski construction and failure patterns with the skiers in the demo shops, (who else is going to tell you which skiis are going to fail?) The demo skis likely get 40-50 days a season... Anyway, The skis typically quoted as likely to delam crack or fail are capped construction, then sidewall. All the people I spoke with did not have any failures to note on wood sidewall skis. Now they will look bad after heavy use, but hold up just fine.

I have some experiments going on exposed sidewall treatments specifically for bamboo, If I get consisntant results I will share some data.

[sammer]

My first pair of "everydayfatties" have well over 50 days on them now and the sidewalls (maple) still look great.
I put boiled linseed oil on them after the first wax and haven't touched them since.
I would recommend reapplying every wax but I'm lazy
I'll probably reapply next time I touch-up my edges.

sam

[iggyskier]

Bamboo sidewalls look great. Prep is obviously nothing. Finishing can take awhile if you are doing multiple coats of sealant and such, but they bevel easy, sand well, etc.

Skiing wise - if you ski hard, you will rock them. If you do any park skiing, cross your skis, etc, expect to see some damage over time. Most of it you can mitigate and with some effort, you can maintain them pretty well, some of it can get pretty bad.

What I've seen a lot of in people who cross their skis a lot is the bamboo gets worked away, exposing the edges of the topsheet/fiberglass and eventually leading to it delaming at that location.

From a production standpoint, I would never, ever, ever consider using wood/bamboo sidewalls on the shear basis that you would end up having to warranty a huge portion of them. It just isn't in the same ballpark as UHMW when it comes to durability.

For home builders, I would say stick with wood sidewalls. Bonding plastic is a huge bitch as everyone knows, and if you give minimal effort you can keep them reasonable nice. Wood is fast, easy, and cheap. Plus I am sure if you got creative you could find some more suitable materials out there.

We don't profile, flame treat, or abrade our sidewalls at all. Crown does it for us. If I had to do that...I would probably go crazy.

[knightsofnii]

yea i wish i could get crown preshaped/treated sidewall, but they want like a burn rate and minimum quantities that i cant handle yet