What do you possibly think is going on here

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dbtahoe
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What do you possibly think is going on here

Post by dbtahoe »

kelvin
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Post by kelvin »

Marketing. :D
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

Looks like a rocker ski w/ camber. The rest sounds like hype... I'm mean marketing. I went to their website and saw the word "Klothoid", a real word??, and other catch phrase/words like DPD. Here's a review from 2007 of Palmer and Klothoid. The ski got good reviews:

http://www.exoticskis.com/forum/default ... posts&t=13

More info on Klothoid (I guess it is a real word, I'll have to add it to spell check :) )
http://homepage.mac.com/cbakken/cga/cur ... thoid.html

So the radius is more of an oval shape than circular?? Ok, I can live with that.

A friend who works at a ski shop skied a pair of K2 rocker skis over winter. He said they did initiate turns easily. I thought he said that all K2 skis would be rocker (K2 calls it "Catch Free Technology" ) to some degree.
knightsofnii
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Post by knightsofnii »

...an abomination, Palmer SKIS? I know lots of skiiers on here but this is the same way i feel about Rossignol, Head, dynastar, etc making snowboards. K2 well they kinda did it from the get go, rossi too but k2 was way more involved. but... eh i could go on forever.

Apparently Shaun Palmer has had nothing to do with Palmer boards, other than riding for them, since like a couple years after he started the company.

Eh, I'll probably make skis one day, then i'll be eating my words ;) that just may be the only way i'd ever ski again ;)

[/code]
Doug
knightsofnii
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Post by knightsofnii »

on a more serious note, its another company desperate for an edge in this identity crisis sticken industry. Its the same thing that never summer "invented" like 3 seasons ago and actually is "patent pending" on that version of camber/rocker. IMHO if you're gonna do all t hat, just make the thing flat.

I wanna make a rocker version called "whoopdedoos" and just have camber/rocker/camber/rocker/camber/rocker/camber/rocker/camber, and magnetraction the edge side to side and up and down, and match it with the cambocombimagneWHAT? Maybe I'll call it spaghetti corn pops, cuz it will look like a bowl of spaghetti with tons of pop yo! :)

They basically are trying to be different by being the same, and trying to come up with their own way to justify what they're doing. The contact point theory could be valid though, but the arcs and graphs were just confusing but it made SOME sense.
Doug
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tufty
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Post by tufty »

skidesmond wrote:More info on Klothoid (I guess it is a real word, I'll have to add it to spell check :) )
http://homepage.mac.com/cbakken/cga/cur ... thoid.html
It's a pismelling, the term generally used is "Clothoid" or "Cornu Spiral". In engineering terms, it can be very useful (loops in coasters, rail(way|road) track curves and so on), but for snowboards and skis I am highly doubtful; unless you only *ever* ride 100% carved on absolutely bulletproof ice, you're probably gonna get the same result with a blended sidecut. After all, it's not like the ski manufacturers have ever poured heavy doses of snake oil on their products, is it?
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

knightsodnii - Thanks for the chuckle first thing this morning. :D

Whenever I start reading the marketing at the manufacturers websites and have to re-read the "technology mumbo-jumbo" cause it doesn't make sense or I have to start looking up words to see if they are real, red flags start going up... and I throw the boots to keep the B.S. off.

btw- "I'm going to start using magnetic edges with the opposite polar charge on each edge of the ski/baord so the it will cause the minerals in the water molecules to form a straight line, thus, giving the ski less resistance over the snow. And the opposite polar charge will make you glide over rails in the snow parks!...." Just kidding :D But if K2, rossi, etc start using magnetic edges just remember you saw it here first :D

tutfy - Thanks for the added info. The Klothoid design sounds like a blended sidecut cut to me. And there's nothing wrong with that. Borrowing technology from other industries, nothing wrong with that either. But can it do what it claims? The skier/boarder makes the ski/board turn, not the other way around as al ot of manufactuers want you to believe. But some of the designs do make turning easier with less effort, but it's still up to the person strapped to the board.
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tufty
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Post by tufty »

skidesmond wrote:tutfy - Thanks for the added info. The Klothoid design sounds like a blended sidecut cut to me. And there's nothing wrong with that. Borrowing technology from other industries, nothing wrong with that either. But can it do what it claims? The skier/boarder makes the ski/board turn, not the other way around as al ot of manufactuers want you to believe. But some of the designs do make turning easier with less effort, but it's still up to the person strapped to the board.
Well, a clothoid is a *particular* type of blended sidecut where the blend is defined by a strict mathematical relationship. As I said, I doubt whether any human could actually tell the difference between a clothoid sidecut and a simple blended sidecut with similar radii under any circumstances. Yes, I think it's "huile de serpent".

There was a (fairly heated) discussion about this between some of the gearheads over at bomberonline, with some insisting that it was clothoid sidecuts that made all the difference with some of the newer boards out on the market (particularly Kessler's, IIRC), until Bruce Varsava (Mr Coiler) stated how he does his sidecuts...
Bruce Varsava wrote:Take a long piece of wire from something like a mig welder, draw a bunch of different radii and cut them out as accurate as you can. Then take a few of those radial sidecut templates and lay them over each other to get the desired result. Use a router to copy that to the new template and blend in the sections with a bit of block sanding.
Conversely, the "decambered tips" thing *does* work, and it works well. It makes a massive difference to the way a board or ski rides, particularly in terms of stability when carving. I had the chance of riding a Kessler a couple of weeks back, and it was a revelation. Shame they cost 1000€+...

And speaking of Kessler, here's a little tidbit for those wanting more information on how and why the decambered tips thing works: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090273161.pdf
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

Tufty - So the decambered tip design has merit. That's good to know, thanks! Maybe I'll try a pair or make a set. I was under the impression the only reason for a rocker/decamberd tip was for the powder hounds. So when I heard the K2 was incorporating that design into theirs skis I didn't understand it, and figured it was just another design trait gone too far, especially for the skiers in the north east and east coast.

SKI ON!
doughboyshredder
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Post by doughboyshredder »

knightsofnii wrote:...an abomination, Palmer SKIS? I know lots of skiiers on here but this is the same way i feel about Rossignol, Head, dynastar, etc making snowboards. K2 well they kinda did it from the get go, rossi too but k2 was way more involved. but... eh i could go on forever.

Apparently Shaun Palmer has had nothing to do with Palmer boards, other than riding for them, since like a couple years after he started the company.

Eh, I'll probably make skis one day, then i'll be eating my words ;) that just may be the only way i'd ever ski again ;)

[/code]
Palmer can ski better than most skiers on here. As far as I know the first Palmer skis were so he had something to ski on.

Palmer kills everything he touches. Skateboarding, snowboarding, skiing, motocross, downhill mountain biking. Dudes a nut.
doughboyshredder
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Post by doughboyshredder »

skidesmond wrote:Tufty - So the decambered tip design has merit. That's good to know, thanks! Maybe I'll try a pair or make a set. I was under the impression the only reason for a rocker/decamberd tip was for the powder hounds. So when I heard the K2 was incorporating that design into theirs skis I didn't understand it, and figured it was just another design trait gone too far, especially for the skiers in the north east and east coast.

SKI ON!
I have been riding a board with a rockered tip and tail all year. All of my boards from now on will have rockered tips and tails to some degree. I am most surprised by the effect on carving in choppy / cruddy conditions. I first decided to try it because of the reports coming in from the alpine snowboarding set.
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MontuckyMadman
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Post by MontuckyMadman »

doughboyshredder wrote:. All of my boards from now on will have rockered tips and tails to some degree. .
wait wait wait... I thought it was a fad?

LOL
doughboyshredder
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Post by doughboyshredder »

:D

It is. At least to a large extent. Rocker does have it's place though.
H-man
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Post by H-man »

doughboyshredder wrote::D

It is. At least to a large extent. Rocker does have it's place though.
it does, deep fluffy off-piste....

start in a nice cozy couloir and flow out into the fields of fluff.....

*wake-up*

euh.. of course, it is a fad, marketing at its best...
BobD
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Post by BobD »

I bought two pairs of Palmer PO2 carving skis this season. They are a ski that is specifically designed for carving. The design is based on Kessler's race snowboards, which have dominated World cup racing for the last few years. So is it hype ? No it isn't. The edge hold on boiler plate is crazy. Carving through crud is easy. A lot of Titinal makes them very damp, but a lot of camber (in the middle) gives a surprising amount of rebound. What's more, they need much less effort to use than conventional skis aimed at the carving market. My only concern for next season is that they may become boring. You lay them over until you start to boot out, turn after turn. You wonder why the tracks look strange, it's the brake arms dragging in the snow.
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