Bambi's skis

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Bambi
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Boston

Bambi's skis

Post by Bambi »

I'm going to reverse the trend by starting with the skis and then discussing the build, problems and things that went well.

Image

So you are seeing most of the first 3 pairs that I have built. There is a 4th yet to press.

The two skis in the middle (rounded rectangles) are the first pair that I made. They are mid fat (125/90/115) and relatively soft (10mm at center, 200mm foot platform, 2mmtip and tail). They are a simple 22 oz fabric construction with a rubber /ABS tipspacer, and VDS rubber running the full length of the edges. GFX are simple cut paper.
Construction was easy enough, but on flexing the ski the tail delaminated very clean at the interface with the ABS so I have decided to make future tipspacers short of the end of the ski to allow the glassfiber to come together to get a better bond of the structural layers.

The skis on the right (sawtooth design) are / were my fat (135/100/120) skis. A soft construction - again 22oz fabric over a core that is 10mm at center, but with no foot platform, so the tips are very soft. I reinforced the underfoot section by use of an extra layer of glassfiber for about 1.5'. This underfoot section ends with a 45 degree V so that there is no sudden discontinuity in longditudinal stiffness, but the 45 degree fibers reach even further down the length of the ski which was hoped to give better torsional stiffness when things get a bit icy. Tips have used rubber damping under a thin wood extension to the core, but they stop about 10mm short of the edge to allow the two layers of fibreglass to bond together which I hope will reduce the chance of delam (no plastic bond at the critical high stress point).

All in all these skis look and flex great, unfortunately with both skis the alignment pins snapped during pressing and the cores are misaligned from the bases. No idea why this happened at all and we didn't change anything in our setup. :-(

The lone ski on the left is mid fat (125/90/115). The second is in the press. This ski has been made very stiff with multiple areas of damping rubber - similar to BK's Kewah (sp?). The ski is built with the typical 22oz 3 axis fiberglass, and the same underfoot reinforcement used in the sawtooths. The core is about 11 mm thick with a 600mm platform and the tips tapering sharply to 2.5mm. I think they will be like planks!

The GFX were printed on a large inkjet plotter - the white areas have gone slightly translucent. I'll let you know how the ink holds up with UV bleaching, but I hope that the topsheet will filter enough to minimize this.

So a few problems with alignment (shame it was on my favorite cores!). But generally going OK.

The Press:

Photos to come but the press deviates from the skibuilders format a little - I have used an MDF mold, which has a 1.4KW silicone heater mat on top (easily gets up to 221F). I then use 2 sheets of spring stainless steel, one below and one above the skis to form a sandwich. These sheets are sprayed with mold release to prevent them getting covered with epoxy.

I use no plastic, but epoxy that squeezes out of the skis onto the steel cracks off easily., there are a few dribbles down the sides of the mold but this doesn't bother me.

The skis are not finished because I am having a shocker trying to cut these things out - I cannot find blades or a jigsaw man enough for the job - they overheat within 5cm and bend over which is dangerous as it can cut at an angle into the ski. No one else on here seems to have any problems with this process so I am not sure if it is my ABS sidewalls that are the cause of the problem, but I think I am going to have to buy a bandsaw to cut them out. Any suggestions welcome.

B.

P.S. If anyone is upset by the slightly risque GFX let me know and I will censor the image, but I figure is is sufficiently obscured not to cause offense. This is my fight against New England puritanical attitudes!
allyson
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Location: reno, nv

Post by allyson »

it's hard to tell what the graphics are, but i like the cut paper look. nice job!
hafte
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Post by hafte »

Nice graphics!! Thats a great idea. Where's the risque parts? Is there a zoom fuction? LOL

Sorry... its the beer talking.

The blades I mention in the other thread didn't work for you? I just cut out a ski the other day and they did just fine and seems like it will do most of another ski. I only had to cut out wood and glass no ABS though.

Really nice look.

What kind of deflections did your predictor give you on them?

Hafte
Bambi
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by Bambi »

Hafte - I couldn't get the blades that you suggested as they did not fit my slightly antiquated jigsaw!

I know that a bad workman blames his tools, but I think the problem that I am having may be because the jigsaw that I have (a 'craftsman' - from the '40s I think!) has no 'guides' to support the blade so the blade ends up bending off to the left or right and with each cut it gets worse until it kinks off to the side - I went through 4 blades trying to cut out 1 ski (and didn't finish it!).

GFX - I was please with the cut paper GFX, but the print out is only so so.

Ski predictor - I never updated it to allow modelling for changes to the glass thickness along the length of the ski so I cannot really model my underfoot stiffening. Having said that, interpolating between 2 extremes with the model I expect the skis on the left to come out close to my Reverends. The middle skis are softer as they are for my GF and I hope that these will be close to my T-Stix which she really likes.

One more pair of fatties to do which are for my skibuilding partner who has supplied a garage to do this in! These will be similar to the revs again, but have much softer tips and tails.

Oh yeah - other things I would change if I were starting from scratch:

1) forget plastic sidewalls - they seem to have made every step 50 - 100% harder!
2) relax the camber, tip and tail radius on my molds. I assumed that there would be some relaxing of the curvature, and so I made the bends a bit tighter, but my skis come out with the exact dimensions of the mold! (I am pressing at 212 degrees F for 2hrs then leave to cool for 24hrs in the mold)

B.
plywood
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Post by plywood »

cool grafics! i like the ones with the rectangulars the most. the really look awesome.

about your cutting problem. it can be related to the abs sidewalls. i worked once in a cnc factory where they were specialized in working with plastics. there i had to operate a lathe and produce some parts out of abs. they had a counterbore which had to be very accurate. anyway, the chippings sometimes got stuck in the counterbore, between the "walls" of it and the machining tool. of course the lath didn`t stop turning and the abs got really hot, sticked to the tool, began to "melt" and destroyed the workpiece.

maybe this could also happen with your jigsaw. abs gets a little warmer from cutting, gets stuck between the blade and the part you already cut and everything gets even hotter.... heat is a beast when cutting, it destroys the blade really fast.
plywood freeride industries - go ply, ride wood!
Bambi
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by Bambi »

Plywood - I think that your observations on the ABS are spot on - if I cut more than 10cm then it starts melting and sticking to the sawblade.

This is part of the reason that I think a band saw may be a good idea because the blade has time to cool down as it runs round the machine and also I can wax the blade to cool it.

B.
G-man
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Location: northern sierra nevada

Post by G-man »

Hi Bambi,

I agree with other's comments above regarding ABS. It softens at a pretty low temperature, then becomes sticky, which in turn creates more friction and more heat (destroys saber saw blades really fast). I don't use ABS in my ski construction, but I use quite a lot of engineering grade ABS for making machine parts. I have reasonably good success with it by keeping the cutting speeds low and using a coolant when possible. Band saws work pretty good for cutting ABS because the blade gets a chance to cool on it's way around the drive wheels... reducing the blade speed also helps.

Some thoughts regarding your use tip spacers...
Generally speaking, tip spacers are used to provide increased durability and shock absorption to areas of the ski that often see increased wear and tear from bouncing into things like rocks and trees or scraping on parking lot asphalt. If you are having bonding difficulties with the ABS tip spacers and are thus planning to hold them back short of the end of the ski in the future, they then would not provide any real usefulness, and could just be left out entirely (unless I'm missing a different function that you may have in mind). I never could get ABS to bond well myself, so I gave up on it, even though many other builders seem to have adequate success with it. As an alternative to ABS, the 2mm UHMW tip spacer material (pre-treated for bonding) available on this site bonds quite well and might be worth your consideration. Poly-ethylene is pretty hard on saber saw blades also, but not as bad as ABS.

The newer saber saws are certainly a different animal from the older ones, and the blades available for the newer saws are much more durable and versatile. However, I still haven't found a blade that will cut more that a foot or two before it's completely shot. The standard blades cut wood and fiberglass just fine, but any kind of polymer just seems to kill them, even the one's that are supposed to be designed to cut plastic. The band saw works okay for me at present, but I hope to be using carbide cutters on the CNC in the near future. Sharp tools, slow cutting speeds, and small bites (and coolant if feasible) seem to be the best way to shape plastic with cutting tools... in other words, try to keep the plastic as cool as possible.

Congrats on the big batch of skis. Your process sounds pretty efficient. Good luck with the trimming, and as G-man always says, don't go outside to play without your respirator.
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bigKam
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Post by bigKam »

Bambi:

very nice skis! congrats on finishing them.
Bambi
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Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: Boston

Post by Bambi »

The bandsaw did the trick. Photos to come...
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