Folks,
After having great success in building some downhill skateboard decks this summer, i have been reinspired to continue with building alpine carving boards and hopefully a set a skis for next season. with that, I am wrestling with what materials bond to what. I have submitted the following sequence to a reknown (alpine board)builder and he indicated it would delam. Please do not say this guy is full of it b/c he has hundreds of builds and documented R&D under his belt over the past ten years, plus he has podium level olympians on his build list. while he wont give details (which I respect), I am hoping to be successful with completing the last 10% of my first build. My suggested (delam as indicated by him) is as follows:
Topsheet
titanal (etched)
glass (dont know what weight or weave)
CF strips (uni)
core (maple and poplar)
CF strips (uni)
glass
Titanal (etched)
sorbothane (2" strips along edges) along the length
base and edge
If you have not worked with titanal please offer what you can, If you have not ridden skis or boards with titanal..........bring a box of tissues, because it will baffle and amaze you with vibration dampening and edge setting abilities depending on how it is constructed.
My main focus is to discover what is the best sequence for bonding for each material to material. I know CF & Titanal need to separated b/c they dont play well together and separate, but still trying to figure out if glass needs to be between each other material and what bonds to what without failure.
I have theories on what will bond to what but my budget is limited by the wife and I hope not to make apark bench of my first build. If I am successful with this, I can then apply my lessons learned to building skis for me and my two boys. seeing some of the turns folks are making tickles me to get back into skiing, but the wife wont let me drop the coin to get set up, but she "thumbs up" me building it.
Thanks
Greg
Bonding Sequence of Wood, CF, Glass, Titanal, Sorbothane
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Dutchjibber
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:07 am
- Location: Delft, The Netherlands
1. I din't know if the topsheet will bond onto the titanal, you might want to use a thin layer of fibreglass. Same with the base(and edges that are glued on)
2. Titanal is also often sandblasted to insure good epoxy bonding, so have a look at that.
3. Also very important is the thickness (and placing) of the titanal. It makes a ski perfect or unridable.
just my 2 cents...
2. Titanal is also often sandblasted to insure good epoxy bonding, so have a look at that.
3. Also very important is the thickness (and placing) of the titanal. It makes a ski perfect or unridable.
just my 2 cents...
She knows it costs more from last summer. I was shopping for a new longboard skateboard and she balked at the price and told me to just build one. 12 decks later and more coming this summer, she came to realize maybe she should have just let buy the one I wanted.
She also understands that my garage time keeps me in a good frame of mind. Most others guys are heading to the bar with their paycheck, my $$$ goes to my supply guys, but at least I have something to show for it.
Now I am getting back into snowboard building and then some skis for me and the boys.
Any idea if it is better the chemically etch the titanal or scour with sandpaper?
She also understands that my garage time keeps me in a good frame of mind. Most others guys are heading to the bar with their paycheck, my $$$ goes to my supply guys, but at least I have something to show for it.
Now I am getting back into snowboard building and then some skis for me and the boys.
Any idea if it is better the chemically etch the titanal or scour with sandpaper?
I don't want to sound selfish or unwilling to help you out, but I can't reveal my resource, as providing it , may lead to any chance of me not being able to get more. It took me close to two years to find this guy and I dont want to violate that relationship in any way. Everywhere else I looked, you have to order large amounts.
What I might be able to do is if my contact will help me out again, I can just order some extra and get it to you if it isnt too much.
I hope you can appreciate where I am coming from. It will be some time before I will consider getting anymore, as I have enough for about 3 builds this sumer which I will be using. but will keep you in mind for the next order.
Sorry
What I might be able to do is if my contact will help me out again, I can just order some extra and get it to you if it isnt too much.
I hope you can appreciate where I am coming from. It will be some time before I will consider getting anymore, as I have enough for about 3 builds this sumer which I will be using. but will keep you in mind for the next order.
Sorry
Hey Chubz,
I'm a real proponent of doing tests on small sample pieces when new materials are inrtroduced into the building process. I always try to simulate my actual building process as closely as possible, then I stress test the samples to assess how well they perform. With your titanal, you might even try scouring with a really coarse sandpaper a then also use a light chemical etch.
G-man
I'm a real proponent of doing tests on small sample pieces when new materials are inrtroduced into the building process. I always try to simulate my actual building process as closely as possible, then I stress test the samples to assess how well they perform. With your titanal, you might even try scouring with a really coarse sandpaper a then also use a light chemical etch.
G-man
Thanks
That is what I was going to do. I did find a build recipe on line for a sequence, just trying to elimate as many variables prior to expending too many materials.
Oddly enough, the etch chemical I found is made right across the river from where I live.
I didnt want to scratchtoo much with the sandpaper as it will affect the flex characteristics of the metal.
That is what I was going to do. I did find a build recipe on line for a sequence, just trying to elimate as many variables prior to expending too many materials.
Oddly enough, the etch chemical I found is made right across the river from where I live.
I didnt want to scratchtoo much with the sandpaper as it will affect the flex characteristics of the metal.
G-man
I did a sample yesterday and put it in little makeshift press. About 2"x8" My sequence was
CF (Uni)
Titanal (scuffed with sandpaper not chemical etch)
Wood
CF
Titanal (scuffed)
Sorbothane along edges
base material
All put togehter with West system epoxy
Here is what I experienced once it was out of press this afternoon
Super stiff
Base material (unscuffed or untreated with acetone) easily peeled from titanal with sorbothane peeling in certain areas
The rest seemed to hold together fairly well, but with a little manipulation, I was able to peel the CF from the Titanal and the titanal from the wood.
In a good adhesion, like in a finished production ski, would I be able to peel those layers apart if the ski was snapped for instance of should I expect them to be adhere and not come apart no matter what?
I am just trying to figure out what the prep and sequence is for all of the products involved to minimze failure.
I did a sample yesterday and put it in little makeshift press. About 2"x8" My sequence was
CF (Uni)
Titanal (scuffed with sandpaper not chemical etch)
Wood
CF
Titanal (scuffed)
Sorbothane along edges
base material
All put togehter with West system epoxy
Here is what I experienced once it was out of press this afternoon
Super stiff
Base material (unscuffed or untreated with acetone) easily peeled from titanal with sorbothane peeling in certain areas
The rest seemed to hold together fairly well, but with a little manipulation, I was able to peel the CF from the Titanal and the titanal from the wood.
In a good adhesion, like in a finished production ski, would I be able to peel those layers apart if the ski was snapped for instance of should I expect them to be adhere and not come apart no matter what?
I am just trying to figure out what the prep and sequence is for all of the products involved to minimze failure.
G-man
I did a sample yesterday and put it in little makeshift press. About 2"x8" My sequence was
CF (Uni)
Titanal (scuffed with sandpaper not chemical etch)
Wood
CF
Titanal (scuffed)
Sorbothane along edges
base material
All put togehter with West system epoxy
Here is what I experienced once it was out of press this afternoon
Super stiff
Base material (unscuffed or untreated with acetone) easily peeled from titanal with sorbothane peeling in certain areas
The rest seemed to hold together fairly well, but with a little manipulation, I was able to peel the CF from the Titanal and the titanal from the wood.
In a good adhesion, like in a finished production ski, would I be able to peel those layers apart if the ski was snapped for instance of should I expect them to be adhere and not come apart no matter what?
I am just trying to figure out what the prep and sequence is for all of the products involved to minimze failure.
I did a sample yesterday and put it in little makeshift press. About 2"x8" My sequence was
CF (Uni)
Titanal (scuffed with sandpaper not chemical etch)
Wood
CF
Titanal (scuffed)
Sorbothane along edges
base material
All put togehter with West system epoxy
Here is what I experienced once it was out of press this afternoon
Super stiff
Base material (unscuffed or untreated with acetone) easily peeled from titanal with sorbothane peeling in certain areas
The rest seemed to hold together fairly well, but with a little manipulation, I was able to peel the CF from the Titanal and the titanal from the wood.
In a good adhesion, like in a finished production ski, would I be able to peel those layers apart if the ski was snapped for instance of should I expect them to be adhere and not come apart no matter what?
I am just trying to figure out what the prep and sequence is for all of the products involved to minimze failure.
It sounds like the titanal is not bonding properly or your west system epoxy did not cure properly.
You mentioned that your base material was not prepped. I would assume this is what caused the problem with adhesion there.
CF should bond like fiberglass does with epoxy (you should not be able to peel it away). I don't know the bonding characteristics of sorbothane (is this what VDS foil is?) but a lot of rubbers, except for the VDS available in the skibuilders store, don't bond very well with epoxy, especially at room temperature. There is a material called chemlok that you can treat rubber with to get a better bond with epoxy. If you inquire about chemlok ask what it would do if you treated the titanal with it. This might help with adhesion.
Epoxy should soak into the wood a little bit, this makes for a very strong bond. Is the epoxy sticking to the titanal or to the wood in the places where adhesion failed?
I wonder if your titanal is oxidizing. Does it come with a protective layer? Did you come up with a way to prepare the surface of the titanal without exposing it to oxygen for very long?
It would be cool to have a titanal supplier willing to sell to small time ski builders.
You mentioned that your base material was not prepped. I would assume this is what caused the problem with adhesion there.
CF should bond like fiberglass does with epoxy (you should not be able to peel it away). I don't know the bonding characteristics of sorbothane (is this what VDS foil is?) but a lot of rubbers, except for the VDS available in the skibuilders store, don't bond very well with epoxy, especially at room temperature. There is a material called chemlok that you can treat rubber with to get a better bond with epoxy. If you inquire about chemlok ask what it would do if you treated the titanal with it. This might help with adhesion.
Epoxy should soak into the wood a little bit, this makes for a very strong bond. Is the epoxy sticking to the titanal or to the wood in the places where adhesion failed?
I wonder if your titanal is oxidizing. Does it come with a protective layer? Did you come up with a way to prepare the surface of the titanal without exposing it to oxygen for very long?
It would be cool to have a titanal supplier willing to sell to small time ski builders.
I could ahve prepped better but I just had some excess epoxy in a bowl tinkering with some of my skate builds so I threw a sample together
Base- I can dig that. Next time I will scuff and acetone it
CF was totally pregged and worked well, infact the piece of baltic birch I used for the wood sample laminate failed before the bind between the wood and Titanal (T) did.
I know sorbothane is used in other snowboards and has some of the best vibration dampening qualities, that is why i went with it instead of foil. I will investigte further.
I did cure at room temp
I will check into chemlok
Epoxy was fully into the wood and stuck over the whole size of the wood, but the T seemed to peel evenly away from the layer of epoxy that existed between the T and wood. once the T was peeled a super thin layer or perfectly smooth epoxy was there.
I understand that the T is anodized, but I dont know if it comes that way or if the guy I get it form preps it to be anodized. And I do not have a method to minmize oxidation. How quickly does that take effect. I was also considering chemcial etching, which a company about 2 miles from me makes for aluminum
As far as getting a supply into the states for skibuilders, my relationship with him is not that strong yet. I am lucky to have gotten what I did.
But keep the ideas coming, I hope to run some more test sample this weekend.
The Cf was adhering to the T in certain areas and needed more coaxing to be separated.
Base- I can dig that. Next time I will scuff and acetone it
CF was totally pregged and worked well, infact the piece of baltic birch I used for the wood sample laminate failed before the bind between the wood and Titanal (T) did.
I know sorbothane is used in other snowboards and has some of the best vibration dampening qualities, that is why i went with it instead of foil. I will investigte further.
I did cure at room temp
I will check into chemlok
Epoxy was fully into the wood and stuck over the whole size of the wood, but the T seemed to peel evenly away from the layer of epoxy that existed between the T and wood. once the T was peeled a super thin layer or perfectly smooth epoxy was there.
I understand that the T is anodized, but I dont know if it comes that way or if the guy I get it form preps it to be anodized. And I do not have a method to minmize oxidation. How quickly does that take effect. I was also considering chemcial etching, which a company about 2 miles from me makes for aluminum
As far as getting a supply into the states for skibuilders, my relationship with him is not that strong yet. I am lucky to have gotten what I did.
But keep the ideas coming, I hope to run some more test sample this weekend.
The Cf was adhering to the T in certain areas and needed more coaxing to be separated.
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doughboyshredder
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:37 pm
My understanding is that due to different flexing characteristics of metals and fiberglasses, that there should always be a thin layer of rubber (vds or some sort) between any metal and any other component in the laminate. This thin layer of rubber allows there to be a flex between the two materials without causing a delamination.
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knightsofnii
- Posts: 1148
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 am
- Location: NJ USA
- Contact:
i'd say get rid of the top layers of carbon beams, unless you want a rock board.
most put it only on bottom side of core these days. plus it works better in tension, being on the bottom side, than in compression on the top side, even though you want to keep a uniform laminate. i think
.
what is titanal? titanium? trinium? naqadhria? hehehe.
try sandblasting? try drilling lots of holes in it to get some epoxy thru the gaps? i'm going to bet if not for the gaps between metal edge teeth, edges would peel right off a board too, but they stay on good because the epoxy surrounds the gaps.
most put it only on bottom side of core these days. plus it works better in tension, being on the bottom side, than in compression on the top side, even though you want to keep a uniform laminate. i think
. what is titanal? titanium? trinium? naqadhria? hehehe.
try sandblasting? try drilling lots of holes in it to get some epoxy thru the gaps? i'm going to bet if not for the gaps between metal edge teeth, edges would peel right off a board too, but they stay on good because the epoxy surrounds the gaps.
Doug
I have seen the upper half of one of the most reputable alpine builders in the industry and can say that eliminating the upper CF is not an option. Especially after demo ing one of his decks.
The top sheet is added in the vac bag phase after core phase.
Titanal???? google it and AMAG, also google kessler snowboards, once kessler went to T, podium placment became old hat to their riders to the point that most other alpine snowboard builder are now still building glass decks, but the trend is to T decks simply b/c of damping and performance optimization, say good bye to standard ski or board vibrations and chatter. I cant speak to the science behind T but it dampens the ride and holds the edge along its intended course across whatever conditions you ride, especially boilerplate east coast north america conditions.
dont have th means to sand blast nor wiould I consider it.
I consider intermittent holes but dont want oo many as it will deter from performnce across the plane of the metal
/But your point on surrounding with epoxy makes sense i did see that in my sample.
The top sheet is added in the vac bag phase after core phase.
Titanal???? google it and AMAG, also google kessler snowboards, once kessler went to T, podium placment became old hat to their riders to the point that most other alpine snowboard builder are now still building glass decks, but the trend is to T decks simply b/c of damping and performance optimization, say good bye to standard ski or board vibrations and chatter. I cant speak to the science behind T but it dampens the ride and holds the edge along its intended course across whatever conditions you ride, especially boilerplate east coast north america conditions.
dont have th means to sand blast nor wiould I consider it.
I consider intermittent holes but dont want oo many as it will deter from performnce across the plane of the metal
/But your point on surrounding with epoxy makes sense i did see that in my sample.