Finally I could try non-waxed skis on Saturday:
PTEX 900, one side treated and the other is smooth. After pressing I polished the base slightly with sand paper, grinded the edges to the base level, and used a sharp metal scraper to shave the base.
Then I went skiing. Without waxing.
Well, they were fast. Both on cold snow (over 2000m ) and on the spring snow I found at the bottom.
uhmwpe and wax
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Just to add some more this. I have my new Doods and the Heavies out for the last couple of weeks. I had the local shop do a base grind and 1 degree set on the edges. No structuring no wax. The Doods were a bit slow on the snow that first day, but the fuzzies have worn off and they are plenty fast. The heavies have been real cruisers too. We have had cold weather until this last weekend so the snow has been dry and cold, and we have had no new snow for a week. We were able to go out and find some aspects that had been sun baked in the afternoon and both pairs slide well on the wet cornish to almost ice conditions of the last few days. Temps at the ski area have been in the high 30’s to the low 40’s during the day. The base material that I used is the black and clear Durasurf 2000 from snowboard materials.com
I’m off the wax and am in need of a good scraper and structuring tool to set up for spring skiing. And to think all of those irons I ruined over the years… what a waste
Hafte
I’m off the wax and am in need of a good scraper and structuring tool to set up for spring skiing. And to think all of those irons I ruined over the years… what a waste
Hafte
Such an interesting topics, following with keen interest.
Sucks, i dont have 10 posts so i just wrote a massive reply that included a link and then got shot down when i tried to post it, after clicking back my message wasnt still in here. So, cant b bothered re writing the whole thing, was just basically asking how people assessed the credibility of the skinnyskis article that slammed kuzmins theory. I still thought kuzmin had a great point, but the skinnyskis article is kinda convincing too. Just wanted to know what people thought of the skinnyskis article svimen posted - davide already made a good point about it.
Anyway, ill be following closely haha, great debate for sure
Sucks, i dont have 10 posts so i just wrote a massive reply that included a link and then got shot down when i tried to post it, after clicking back my message wasnt still in here. So, cant b bothered re writing the whole thing, was just basically asking how people assessed the credibility of the skinnyskis article that slammed kuzmins theory. I still thought kuzmin had a great point, but the skinnyskis article is kinda convincing too. Just wanted to know what people thought of the skinnyskis article svimen posted - davide already made a good point about it.
Anyway, ill be following closely haha, great debate for sure
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MontuckyMadman
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skidesmond
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Ditto...
There's a lot of contradicting info on the topic. I lost a good metal scraper years ago. Wish I still had it. I have a Toko plastic scraper. Good for scraping wax off but not the base. I read the latest post about stone grinding and waxing and I think it's time to shop for a good cabinet scraper.
There's a lot of contradicting info on the topic. I lost a good metal scraper years ago. Wish I still had it. I have a Toko plastic scraper. Good for scraping wax off but not the base. I read the latest post about stone grinding and waxing and I think it's time to shop for a good cabinet scraper.
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strangesnowboarding
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where did the pics run off to?
not sure what to believe but i am stoked that someone is asking the hard questions. and it has us thinking about something that we assumed was great for so long. messing around with some on snow tests in the next couple days here is colorado.
wish we had a good stone for structure.
not sure what to believe but i am stoked that someone is asking the hard questions. and it has us thinking about something that we assumed was great for so long. messing around with some on snow tests in the next couple days here is colorado.
wish we had a good stone for structure.
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doughboyshredder
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Here's the scoop. IMO, of course.
A sintered base that has never been sanded or structured will be fast as dded with no wax. In MOST conditions. The key is never been sanded. If you could build without getting any epoxy on the base eliminating the need for a base grind you forego waxing and have fast skis with no waxing necessary. Of course using a metal scraper and scraping your base smooth does the same thing, but it's not easy to do.
Again MOST conditions. All it took for me was one day on a board that had been scraped and never sanded to change my mind. Board had been amazing on multiple days. Then one pow day the snow kept sticking in small clumps to the base, making me not move on anything less than vert. Ruined my day. Now, I wax religiously and have one of the fastest bases on the mountain.
A sintered base that has never been sanded or structured will be fast as dded with no wax. In MOST conditions. The key is never been sanded. If you could build without getting any epoxy on the base eliminating the need for a base grind you forego waxing and have fast skis with no waxing necessary. Of course using a metal scraper and scraping your base smooth does the same thing, but it's not easy to do.
Again MOST conditions. All it took for me was one day on a board that had been scraped and never sanded to change my mind. Board had been amazing on multiple days. Then one pow day the snow kept sticking in small clumps to the base, making me not move on anything less than vert. Ruined my day. Now, I wax religiously and have one of the fastest bases on the mountain.
I found some SEM micrographs of waxed and unwaxed ski bases here:
http://www.escnordic.org.uk/myths/pores.htm
I assume these might be similar to the ones formerly shown in this thread.
A note on base structure: the purpose of base structure is not to reduce sliding friction, it's to allow water to "drain". That's kind of an imprecise description, but when you build up a too thick a layer of water under your ski, the surface tension can cause significant drag. In xc skiing, racers will use a very fine pattern in cold conditions, because the snow is so dry and abrasive. In warm, wet conditions, a coarse (often chevron) pattern will be used to give the water under the base a place to go.
If anyone has been cross country skiing on a day where there is bright sun shining on portions of a course, while other parts are in shade, you can sometimes feel your skis slow down in places where the top layer of snow is melting. I use nordic skiing as an example, because ski speed is much more noticeable when you are using your own exertion to keep moving.
Anecdotally, at the winter Olympics , where the weather was perpetually above freezing, teams competing in the nordic events had dozens of ski techs and fleets of skis, each with different base patterns and flex characteristics, and you can bet that if there was any alternative strategies that could have given a nation a competitive advantage, it would have been tried. This causes me to take a rather jaded view of anyone who hypothetically proposes a radically different method of ski preparation, though if someone can demonstrate, through thorough on snow testing, that there is a better way, I would buy in.
http://www.escnordic.org.uk/myths/pores.htm
I assume these might be similar to the ones formerly shown in this thread.
A note on base structure: the purpose of base structure is not to reduce sliding friction, it's to allow water to "drain". That's kind of an imprecise description, but when you build up a too thick a layer of water under your ski, the surface tension can cause significant drag. In xc skiing, racers will use a very fine pattern in cold conditions, because the snow is so dry and abrasive. In warm, wet conditions, a coarse (often chevron) pattern will be used to give the water under the base a place to go.
If anyone has been cross country skiing on a day where there is bright sun shining on portions of a course, while other parts are in shade, you can sometimes feel your skis slow down in places where the top layer of snow is melting. I use nordic skiing as an example, because ski speed is much more noticeable when you are using your own exertion to keep moving.
Anecdotally, at the winter Olympics , where the weather was perpetually above freezing, teams competing in the nordic events had dozens of ski techs and fleets of skis, each with different base patterns and flex characteristics, and you can bet that if there was any alternative strategies that could have given a nation a competitive advantage, it would have been tried. This causes me to take a rather jaded view of anyone who hypothetically proposes a radically different method of ski preparation, though if someone can demonstrate, through thorough on snow testing, that there is a better way, I would buy in.
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skidesmond
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Great article! Thanks for sharing.leifkj wrote:I found some SEM micrographs of waxed and unwaxed ski bases here:
http://www.escnordic.org.uk/myths/pores.htm
I assume these might be similar to the ones formerly shown in this thread.
A note on base structure: the purpose of base structure is not to reduce sliding friction, it's to allow water to "drain". That's kind of an imprecise description, but when you build up a too thick a layer of water under your ski, the surface tension can cause significant drag. In xc skiing, racers will use a very fine pattern in cold conditions, because the snow is so dry and abrasive. In warm, wet conditions, a coarse (often chevron) pattern will be used to give the water under the base a place to go.
If anyone has been cross country skiing on a day where there is bright sun shining on portions of a course, while other parts are in shade, you can sometimes feel your skis slow down in places where the top layer of snow is melting. I use nordic skiing as an example, because ski speed is much more noticeable when you are using your own exertion to keep moving.
Anecdotally, at the winter Olympics , where the weather was perpetually above freezing, teams competing in the nordic events had dozens of ski techs and fleets of skis, each with different base patterns and flex characteristics, and you can bet that if there was any alternative strategies that could have given a nation a competitive advantage, it would have been tried. This causes me to take a rather jaded view of anyone who hypothetically proposes a radically different method of ski preparation, though if someone can demonstrate, through thorough on snow testing, that there is a better way, I would buy in.