applying graphics

For discussions related to the type of materials to build skis/snowboards and where to get them.

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amidnightproject
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Post by amidnightproject »

chrismp wrote:nope, no gloss layer. it was some regular 90g/m² office printer paper. maybe i didn't give it enough time to fully cure.
How long did you wait until you tried ripping at it? Couple hours or a few days?
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

haha, neither! i know i'm an idiot for not waiting. but still...i had some samples with graphics and one with just the topsheet on top of the fiberglass. all went into the press at once. the epoxy i use cures within 10min at 100°C. when the samples were cool enough to touch i started peeling off the topsheets. on the ones with the graphics it came off clean leaving the paper on the fiberglass and on the sample without graphics i ripped off some of the fiberglass from the wood.
amidnightproject
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Post by amidnightproject »

chrismp wrote:haha, neither! i know i'm an idiot for not waiting. but still...i had some samples with graphics and one with just the topsheet on top of the fiberglass. all went into the press at once. the epoxy i use cures within 10min at 100°C. when the samples were cool enough to touch i started peeling off the topsheets. on the ones with the graphics it came off clean leaving the paper on the fiberglass and on the sample without graphics i ripped off some of the fiberglass from the wood.
Maybe that attributed haha?

I'm not sure to be honest. I've never had an issue. I can rip at mine at anypoint on the ski and the between the topsheet and glass is the same even with the paper in between. Kinda puzzled to be honest.
cuddy
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Graphic

Post by cuddy »

I use paper too and works awesome. The only complaint I have is that there sometimes are white spots on the graphic. They seem to go away when I use a lot of epoxy but you mentioned that you use very little. Do you coat the bottom of your topsheet with epoxy before laying it up? That is the only issue I have had, the graphics rock doing it this way. What do you use for topsheets? The stuff from Crown seems to be kind of soft so I am looking for something better.
My site home page shows the white spots I am talking about.
www.meierskis.com
Your skis are looking great!
Cheers,
Matt
amidnightproject
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Re: Graphic

Post by amidnightproject »

cuddy wrote:I use paper too and works awesome. The only complaint I have is that there sometimes are white spots on the graphic. They seem to go away when I use a lot of epoxy but you mentioned that you use very little. Do you coat the bottom of your topsheet with epoxy before laying it up? That is the only issue I have had, the graphics rock doing it this way. What do you use for topsheets? The stuff from Crown seems to be kind of soft so I am looking for something better.
My site home page shows the white spots I am talking about.
www.meierskis.com
Your skis are looking great!
Cheers,
Matt
Yea I definitely know the white spots your talking about.

I use the crown top sheet. I like the finish it produces.

When I lay down the top sheet i start on one end and use a 4" paint roller to help lay the top sheet down and push out any bubbles that may form underneath the topsheet as that is what the white bubbles are. Also if you can let the print de-gas a couple days before you lay it up you will get better results and less air bubbles. At-least thats what i have discovered.
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

i got some coated paper from a print shop today and it looks pretty smooth on both sides...not sure if this will bond well.
is the link to the HP paper the exact paper you use?
is your paper coated on both sides?
what's the finish like?
amidnightproject
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Post by amidnightproject »

chrismp wrote:i got some coated paper from a print shop today and it looks pretty smooth on both sides...not sure if this will bond well.
is the link to the HP paper the exact paper you use?
is your paper coated on both sides?
what's the finish like?
The Heavy Coated paper doesn't really have a "coating" per se. It just produces a matte finish to the print instead of a gloss.

That HP paper is in fact the exact paper I use. The paper will bond. Its fibrous enough to take resin and hold the top sheet. I've never ever had an issue with delams using any sort of normal coat printer paper. Never tried the glossy stuff but I suppose I could in the next batch just to find out.
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

thank you so much! you've been a huge help!
i'm just going to order the exact same paper you use (thank god they sell it under the same product number here in europe).
i'll let you know how it compares to the papers i have finish wise.
cuddy
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Graphics

Post by cuddy »

In my experience, if you use any kind of a paper or ink that produces a shine or a gloss other than the matte finish, you will have bonding issues. Another example is when my friend wanted to use tissue paper for a colored graphic and we had to redo the topsheet due to NO bonding at all. I am about to start experimenting with screen printing, has anyone had luck their? Any advice?
amidnightproject
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Re: Graphics

Post by amidnightproject »

cuddy wrote:In my experience, if you use any kind of a paper or ink that produces a shine or a gloss other than the matte finish, you will have bonding issues. Another example is when my friend wanted to use tissue paper for a colored graphic and we had to redo the topsheet due to NO bonding at all. I am about to start experimenting with screen printing, has anyone had luck their? Any advice?
I dont know a whole lot about screen printing but I do know they make inks for bonding. So I guess thats a start?

I was looking into it for awhile but decided to switch efforts to turning my current press into a dye sub press after I build my new one here in the next month or so. I decided screen printing wasn't going to give me the flexibility I want.
cuddy
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Graphic

Post by cuddy »

Have you determined a cost for the sublimation process? I have looked into it and it just seems too much for me at least at this point. Anyway, keep me updated on your dye sub process as I am super excited to one day get there.
WhitePine
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Post by WhitePine »

Does this "Heavy Coated" paper add much weight to the planks? I plan on building some touring skis and splitboards so I want to keep the weight down but this sounds like the route I want to go for graphics.

amidnightproject - You said you used to print the graphics out on a 8.5 x 11" inkjet. How did you stitch the sheets together without it being noticable? Or did you cut a 6ft length from a roll and cut it to 8.5" and run it through?
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

as for the screen printing any epoxy based ink will work. google for "basler lacke". they offer a variety of screen printing inks for our application.
after reading misha's posts http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2877 i think using regular acrylic colors could work well too.

as for the paper: the weight of the paper itself is 130g/m² for the one amidnightproject posted. then there's the epoxy soaking into the paper, which adds a bit of weight as well.
amidnightproject
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Post by amidnightproject »

WhitePine wrote:Does this "Heavy Coated" paper add much weight to the planks? I plan on building some touring skis and splitboards so I want to keep the weight down but this sounds like the route I want to go for graphics.

amidnightproject - You said you used to print the graphics out on a 8.5 x 11" inkjet. How did you stitch the sheets together without it being noticable? Or did you cut a 6ft length from a roll and cut it to 8.5" and run it through?
I actually print on this.

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm ... 82224.html

I've used an 8.5x11 in the past for smaller stuff but use that plotter above now. Just print it as one sheet. I can't wait to shift things to dye sublimation however and cut out the extra steps it takes to make an intricate graphic layer right now. (all the weeding and cutting excess paper out)

The weight it ads is virtually not noticeable. Its so minute it doesn't make a difference to the way the ski handles. I've ridden the same ski with and without graphics and didn't notice any change. Just one looked like a bamboo plank and the other looked like bamboo with some graphics on it.
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

the HP C6569C paper has arrived! :)
completely different finish from the stuff i got from the print shop. their paper has a smooth, almost glossy, plastic-like coating that would never bond (imo).
the HP roll looks and feels like regular printer paper, just a bit heavier...it's hard to believe that it won't turn translucent during layup, but i guess i'll have to try it :)
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