I searched the forums & couldn't find any mention of this video, so it must be fairly new. I've seen the Line/Karhu video, but it was so industrial that it was merely interesting to watch. This video is inspirational because it seems within reach. I picked up several good tips for lay-up just by watching this video. If I was seeing it right, they use 4 layers of fiberglass in each ski. Maybe you all are using that much too, but I only used 2 layers in my first (& only so far) skis & they were really soft. Anyhow, heres the viddy....
Kingswood factory VIDEO
Ski assembly video. Thanks Kingswood!
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Good post, hose-man.
Based on the vid and the desciption of their construction on the site, this is what I'm guessing. Bottom to top-
-base and edges
-two 1" strips rubber, plus rubber "squares" on the tips
-one layer triax glass
-strip of carbon (uni?) down the middle 2-3" ?
-core
-another strip of carbon
-a wide (full ski width) strip of carbon under the bindings and +/- 20cm? Rubber?
-2 layers triax glass
-binding patch of glass
-1 layer triax
-topsheet
The two things I find most interesting about the vid are the pre-curved abs tipspacers and the mystery layer...
Based on the vid and the desciption of their construction on the site, this is what I'm guessing. Bottom to top-
-base and edges
-two 1" strips rubber, plus rubber "squares" on the tips
-one layer triax glass
-strip of carbon (uni?) down the middle 2-3" ?
-core
-another strip of carbon
-a wide (full ski width) strip of carbon under the bindings and +/- 20cm? Rubber?
-2 layers triax glass
-binding patch of glass
-1 layer triax
-topsheet
The two things I find most interesting about the vid are the pre-curved abs tipspacers and the mystery layer...
------------------Take nothing I say as expert advice------------------
Nice find, Hose-man. It generated a number of questions for me, also.
Regarding the number of composite layers... They only use one layer under the core, but three layers above. It is possible that the bottom layer is a triax layer, and that the top layers are individual uni-directional layers of 0/+45/-45... layed up seperately because of the other mystery components that are sandwiched in between. The individual uni layers could be 6 to 8 oz. weights each, resulting in the same basic composite weights/orientations above and below the core. It's just a guess on my part.
I'm wondering about the rigid nature of the top sheet. My UHMW top sheet is very floppy. Their top sheet is quite clear, somewhat pre-formed, and is stiff enough to not even sag when picked up. The video clearity/resolution is not good enough that I could see detail very well, but it looks as though the core has side walls attached and that the construction is sandwich rather than cap... so, how is it that the top sheet is so stiff?
Their cassette method is very slick, as is their press frame... very clever and efficient.
I am wondering where other builders are getting the top sheet material with the protective surface film already attached?? I've talked with 3M and they don't seem to have any knowledge of a surface film that would work for this. Seems odd that they don't, but maybe I just haven't talked to the right source, yet.
I liked the edge finishing grinder in the video... pretty simple, but seems that it would do a nice job. It may be a wet grinder (I couldn't tell from the video), but if it isn't, it would be pretty easy to add a water feed to the set-up so that it would help keep down some of that nasty fiberglass dust.
I can only guess that the mystery layers might be titanal (the long skinny ones) and some kind of binding screw reinforcement layers. Seems that the layers at the waist of the ski might alter the radial flex qualities of the ski by adding greater stiffness to that area, but maybe that can be compenated for by adjusting the profile of the core. Personally, I like steel inserts for bombproof binding retention and for the fact that they don't interfer with the flex charatoristics. They are, at the same time, somewhat inflexable (I have made some adaptor riser plates that allow for 2 or 3 cm of adjustment forward or aft). I guess that each method of binding retention has it's drawbacks.
Anyway, it looks like Kingswood builds a real nice ski. Thanks to them also for sharing the video.
G-man
Regarding the number of composite layers... They only use one layer under the core, but three layers above. It is possible that the bottom layer is a triax layer, and that the top layers are individual uni-directional layers of 0/+45/-45... layed up seperately because of the other mystery components that are sandwiched in between. The individual uni layers could be 6 to 8 oz. weights each, resulting in the same basic composite weights/orientations above and below the core. It's just a guess on my part.
I'm wondering about the rigid nature of the top sheet. My UHMW top sheet is very floppy. Their top sheet is quite clear, somewhat pre-formed, and is stiff enough to not even sag when picked up. The video clearity/resolution is not good enough that I could see detail very well, but it looks as though the core has side walls attached and that the construction is sandwich rather than cap... so, how is it that the top sheet is so stiff?
Their cassette method is very slick, as is their press frame... very clever and efficient.
I am wondering where other builders are getting the top sheet material with the protective surface film already attached?? I've talked with 3M and they don't seem to have any knowledge of a surface film that would work for this. Seems odd that they don't, but maybe I just haven't talked to the right source, yet.
I liked the edge finishing grinder in the video... pretty simple, but seems that it would do a nice job. It may be a wet grinder (I couldn't tell from the video), but if it isn't, it would be pretty easy to add a water feed to the set-up so that it would help keep down some of that nasty fiberglass dust.
I can only guess that the mystery layers might be titanal (the long skinny ones) and some kind of binding screw reinforcement layers. Seems that the layers at the waist of the ski might alter the radial flex qualities of the ski by adding greater stiffness to that area, but maybe that can be compenated for by adjusting the profile of the core. Personally, I like steel inserts for bombproof binding retention and for the fact that they don't interfer with the flex charatoristics. They are, at the same time, somewhat inflexable (I have made some adaptor riser plates that allow for 2 or 3 cm of adjustment forward or aft). I guess that each method of binding retention has it's drawbacks.
Anyway, it looks like Kingswood builds a real nice ski. Thanks to them also for sharing the video.
G-man
Last edited by G-man on Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
Okay, I should have visited the Kingswood site before my first post. Lots of clues there. There is a PDF download of an article from NZskier magazine that has a good photo of the layering above the core. It seems to confirm that , above the core, there are two lateral strips of VDS type rubber at the waist (40 to 50 cm long), then a 50 to 60 mm wide layer of full length carbon fiber, then a 30 to 40 cm long binding area reinforcing layer of fiber glass... all of these components are separated by a full layer of some sort of glass fiber. Under the core seems to be the standard layering with a strip of carbon thrown in, as collin suggested above. Again, all of this is mostly guessing on my part, but with a few more clues from the actual Kingswood web site.
I've been noticing more lately that a lot of ski and snowboard builders (including Kingswood) are using ABS for sidewalls and tip spacers. Kingswood states that it bonds better. I'm going to get my hands on some and check it out. Has anyone who frequents this site used it?... care to comment on it?
Also, the Kingswood site states that they use ISO 3000 top sheets. Does anyone know of any sources for it in the U.S.?
G-man
I've been noticing more lately that a lot of ski and snowboard builders (including Kingswood) are using ABS for sidewalls and tip spacers. Kingswood states that it bonds better. I'm going to get my hands on some and check it out. Has anyone who frequents this site used it?... care to comment on it?
Also, the Kingswood site states that they use ISO 3000 top sheets. Does anyone know of any sources for it in the U.S.?
G-man
The small piece at the binding area on top of the carbon doesn't look like glass. As he applies it on the second ski you can see it doesn't bend through and he presses the piece on the ski with his thumbs.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is titanal or something else which can hold the screws better. As you can read in the article he had to find a solution for ripping the bindings out of the skis.
Geoff
It wouldn't surprise me if it is titanal or something else which can hold the screws better. As you can read in the article he had to find a solution for ripping the bindings out of the skis.
Geoff
I think you're right. I stand corrected.BigG wrote:The small piece at the binding area on top of the carbon doesn't look like glass. As he applies it on the second ski you can see it doesn't bend through and he presses the piece on the ski with his thumbs.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is titanal or something else which can hold the screws better. As you can read in the article he had to find a solution for ripping the bindings out of the skis.
Geoff
What do people think of the wide layer of carbon underfoot? Since it ends well before the tips. Pretty different than what folks have been doing here, but I can see how it might be desirable.
------------------Take nothing I say as expert advice------------------
I have been using thisG-man wrote: ...
I am wondering where other builders are getting the top sheet material with the protective surface film already attached?? I've talked with 3M and they don't seem to have any knowledge of a surface film that would work for this. Seems odd that they don't, but maybe I just haven't talked to the right source, yet.
...
G-man
http://www.pro-tect.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40
It works pretty well.
Hey Rich C,
Thanks very much for the tip and the link. The product appears to be just what I'm looking for. It's priced right, also. The spec data indicates that it is rated for 150 degrees F for 45 days. I'd need it to go to 170 degrees, but just for 60 minutes. I'd think it would still work under those parameters. Do you heat cure your skis? (snowboards?). If so, at what temp? Thanks again,
G-man
Thanks very much for the tip and the link. The product appears to be just what I'm looking for. It's priced right, also. The spec data indicates that it is rated for 150 degrees F for 45 days. I'd need it to go to 170 degrees, but just for 60 minutes. I'd think it would still work under those parameters. Do you heat cure your skis? (snowboards?). If so, at what temp? Thanks again,
G-man
Splat,
Thanks for the reply. I can see where my post was not very clear. I was actually wondering if Rich C has been using his protective surface film with a heated press, and if so, at what temp. If he is using the film in a room temp cure press with good results, it possible that the product might not perform well in a heated press. If, on the other hand, he is using the film in a heated press, and it still peels off well after pressing, then I'll feel better about ordering a batch for myself (to use in my heated press).
Thanks again
G-man
Thanks for the reply. I can see where my post was not very clear. I was actually wondering if Rich C has been using his protective surface film with a heated press, and if so, at what temp. If he is using the film in a room temp cure press with good results, it possible that the product might not perform well in a heated press. If, on the other hand, he is using the film in a heated press, and it still peels off well after pressing, then I'll feel better about ordering a batch for myself (to use in my heated press).
Thanks again
G-man
Maybe kevlar? You can't just throw metal in a ski for mount screws. It will will screw up the camber. Titanal has to go on both sides of a core or with it - or any other metal - just one layer kills camber and flex.BigG wrote:The small piece at the binding area on top of the carbon doesn't look like glass. As he applies it on the second ski you can see it doesn't bend through and he presses the piece on the ski with his thumbs.
It wouldn't surprise me if it is titanal or something else which can hold the screws better. As you can read in the article he had to find a solution for ripping the bindings out of the skis.
Geoff