SB.com mentions laminating with epoxy, but I'm used to laminating with wood glue for most projects. Is this a bad idea in ski construction? Has anyone tried it?
And what about Gorilla Glue?
This is just for core lamination - not layup.
What about wooden tipspacers? I've got some extra poplar I'd love to use...
Rivets prolong the life of a ski... right? I know they detract from it's looks but I'd rather have a long lasting than cool looking ski. Are rivets worth putting in to prevent delamination?
Lamination + tipspacers + rivets
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Lamination + tipspacers + rivets
Go to Heaven, ski like Hell
Titebond 3 is a killer woodglue that i have had great luck with in cores. As far as rivets go, I really dont think it will help prevent delamination. K2 loves them because they look badass, they dont help anything structural (if anything decrease). think about it: Seth Morrison...badass...piercings...rivets! seems like logical marketing. any holes in composites only create a large area for cracks to propigate from, which is exactly what the theory of composites' strength is suppose to prevent. a couple years ago i had a pair of volkl Vs that started to delam, so i injected some epoxy, drilled, and riveted the tips. less than a month later the whole tip had blown out and i had to trash my skis. metals and plastics dont mix well.
I disagree. I was told that the pre-production seth pistols & PE's had delam problems when K2 switched them to the torsion box construction. The rivets are structurally functional and are certainly cutting back on their warrantee claims. Your experience not withstanding, i think riveting is a good idea if you don't have your uhmwpe bonding dialed in. Using a wood tipspacer may allow for sufficient bonding that the rivets are unecessary, but maybe not. Better safe than sorry I say.mattman wrote:Titebond 3 is a killer woodglue that i have had great luck with in cores. As far as rivets go, I really dont think it will help prevent delamination. K2 loves them because they look badass, they dont help anything structural (if anything decrease). think about it: Seth Morrison...badass...piercings...rivets! seems like logical marketing. any holes in composites only create a large area for cracks to propigate from, which is exactly what the theory of composites' strength is suppose to prevent. a couple years ago i had a pair of volkl Vs that started to delam, so i injected some epoxy, drilled, and riveted the tips. less than a month later the whole tip had blown out and i had to trash my skis. metals and plastics dont mix well.
I use Titebond for my cores as well. It's cheaper than epoxy (right?) and is much easier to work with.
Rivets will definitely add strength to your tips. I had a few problems with some of my tips because of experimentation with different tipspacer materials and rivets have always saved them. But I'd only rivet them after they delaminate because your tips may be strong enough to not separate.
K2 makes me laugh. I remember when they first put the bullet rivets in the PE's and claimed the reason for doing so was to reduce vibration in the tips.
Rivets will definitely add strength to your tips. I had a few problems with some of my tips because of experimentation with different tipspacer materials and rivets have always saved them. But I'd only rivet them after they delaminate because your tips may be strong enough to not separate.
K2 makes me laugh. I remember when they first put the bullet rivets in the PE's and claimed the reason for doing so was to reduce vibration in the tips.
- Kam S Leang (aka Little Kam)
I am going to chine it with Kam and Hose-man by saying that Titebond is about the best stuff to use for cores, and that rivets do work really well for keeping your tips together if they delam. However, I kind of look at riveting as "poor form" as it is a good way to compensate for a poorly constructed ski. And, as you start experimenting with different skibuilding techniques and materials, at least a few pairs of skis will come out really badly. Like littlekam, I avoid it until the tips delaminate, then I will rivet them.
K2 riveting their skis is kind of like those guys you see driving around in giant lifted pickup trucks... compensating for something?
K2 riveting their skis is kind of like those guys you see driving around in giant lifted pickup trucks... compensating for something?
I belive that standard carpenter glue creates a bond between to wood piece that is stronger than the wood itself. Laminated boards tend to break somewhere else than in the joint, usually. It's lot cheaper also.
Carpenter glue should not be the weakess thing in your skis. Bonding to UHMWPE is more of a pain. For the time being, i've pressed one ski, number two should be on the way tonight. My first tip spacers are made of fiberglass (flexible during layup, good bonding, easy.....).
Carpenter glue should not be the weakess thing in your skis. Bonding to UHMWPE is more of a pain. For the time being, i've pressed one ski, number two should be on the way tonight. My first tip spacers are made of fiberglass (flexible during layup, good bonding, easy.....).
Mart
So do wooden tipspacers work? I'd do it out of Poplar.
Also for wooden sidewalls and tipspacers, do you treat before press, after press and trim or both?
And finally, can someone post a link to an alpine ski binding template? I've contacted a couple places but the kinda adressed me like a corporate spy. I don't care what binding (screws in the same place on most bindings right)
Thanks Again
Also for wooden sidewalls and tipspacers, do you treat before press, after press and trim or both?
And finally, can someone post a link to an alpine ski binding template? I've contacted a couple places but the kinda adressed me like a corporate spy. I don't care what binding (screws in the same place on most bindings right)
Thanks Again
Go to Heaven, ski like Hell
Hi zack276,
I'm not so sure about the wooden tip spacers. The main purpose of the tip spacer is to protect the wooden core from damage in the area that takes the most abuse... the tip. Also, the exposed wood at the tip would end up being end grain somewhere around the tip (depending on how you oriented the wood grain... longitudinally or transverse), and end grain absorbs moisture much more readily than side grain. Also, I wouldn't recommend treating any wood component prior to pressing because wood preservatives can really mess up the epoxy bond with the wood. You would treat the wooden sidewalls after trim and finishing.
Good luck,
G-man
I'm not so sure about the wooden tip spacers. The main purpose of the tip spacer is to protect the wooden core from damage in the area that takes the most abuse... the tip. Also, the exposed wood at the tip would end up being end grain somewhere around the tip (depending on how you oriented the wood grain... longitudinally or transverse), and end grain absorbs moisture much more readily than side grain. Also, I wouldn't recommend treating any wood component prior to pressing because wood preservatives can really mess up the epoxy bond with the wood. You would treat the wooden sidewalls after trim and finishing.
Good luck,
G-man
zack726,
For the binding templates you might try to make friends with the local ski shop folks. They will have all of the templates for bindings they carry. I'm going to use my local guys for that when necessary and for my base grinding and edge shaping.
I have a good crew at one of the local shops.
On the glue. Are all of them water proof/resistant? I've watched water migrate along seams from dings and delaminate wood as the non-water proof glue softened in kayak paddles. I use epoxy. If you do the glue up right there is very little chance of this happening. It takes a bit more time, but worth the effort. YMMV
I plan to do tip spacers out of polyester fabric (diolin?) and built up layers of dynel at the very tip. I use the dynel as edging for kayak paddles and tip reinforcements for my kayaks. Very tough stuff. It can really take a beating. This will make the tip one piece with the ski since its done in the lay up, and be dam near as tough as steel tips ( I hope). I’ll post more on this as I make the skis. I almost have my tooling done. I should have a few new shiny pairs of skis in the next couple of weeks to show off.
Hafte
For the binding templates you might try to make friends with the local ski shop folks. They will have all of the templates for bindings they carry. I'm going to use my local guys for that when necessary and for my base grinding and edge shaping.
I have a good crew at one of the local shops.
On the glue. Are all of them water proof/resistant? I've watched water migrate along seams from dings and delaminate wood as the non-water proof glue softened in kayak paddles. I use epoxy. If you do the glue up right there is very little chance of this happening. It takes a bit more time, but worth the effort. YMMV
I plan to do tip spacers out of polyester fabric (diolin?) and built up layers of dynel at the very tip. I use the dynel as edging for kayak paddles and tip reinforcements for my kayaks. Very tough stuff. It can really take a beating. This will make the tip one piece with the ski since its done in the lay up, and be dam near as tough as steel tips ( I hope). I’ll post more on this as I make the skis. I almost have my tooling done. I should have a few new shiny pairs of skis in the next couple of weeks to show off.
Hafte
zack726, you’re right about the urethane glues (gorilla glue). They are water proof. They also take as long to dry/cure as epoxy, and @ $13.00+ for 16 or 20 oz. (~$.65 per oz) cost is about the same or more to use. I just glued up my boards for my skis. Enough to do ~ 8 pairs of skis. It took ~12 oz. by wt. of epoxy (that’s < $6.00 or ~$.42 per oz.) plus a little bit of colloidal silica and an over night cure with the system I use. I still have to rip the 3” wide x ~1/2” thick parts from the blank and glue two pieces together to get the width I need. And I still need to wait over night no matter which glue I use for this process before I can mill them farther. I might use urethane glue for this since it will cause less damage to my planer knives and is easier to prep the surface for the next step. Other nice things about epoxies is that you can cover up work surfaces with plastic and usually will not stick. Urethane glues stick to everything so does tightbond. Water clean up to get epoxy off of my skin if I get any on me at all. I have also found that aliphatic resin adhesives (titebond) are a bitch to glue up large surfaces when the weather is hot. It just sets up too fast… more so than epoxy.
I guess I don’t understand the fear/reluctance of folks to use a superior product, IMHO, to glue up something as important as the core of your skis. I don’t see time savings, cost savings, or bond strength increase. Am I missing something?
BTW, I hope you mean UHMW-PE in your last statement? If so, then yes you can, but as you have been reading here surface prep for gluing up plastics is critical and time consuming. The method I’m planning is easy, sure and something I know will work… for me. The part be will be one piece when I’m done and very tough.
This is all my opinion… you know what they say about those. I have tried a lot of things over the last 7-8 years that I have been into composites as a hobby and this is what has worked best for me.
Anyway Good luck and have fun.
BWT, this is my first run at making skis. I have lots of other projects completed, and several years of experience with the materials, so read my comments with that in mind.
Hafte
I guess I don’t understand the fear/reluctance of folks to use a superior product, IMHO, to glue up something as important as the core of your skis. I don’t see time savings, cost savings, or bond strength increase. Am I missing something?
BTW, I hope you mean UHMW-PE in your last statement? If so, then yes you can, but as you have been reading here surface prep for gluing up plastics is critical and time consuming. The method I’m planning is easy, sure and something I know will work… for me. The part be will be one piece when I’m done and very tough.
This is all my opinion… you know what they say about those. I have tried a lot of things over the last 7-8 years that I have been into composites as a hobby and this is what has worked best for me.
Anyway Good luck and have fun.
BWT, this is my first run at making skis. I have lots of other projects completed, and several years of experience with the materials, so read my comments with that in mind.
Hafte
Waterproof Glue and UHMWPE
Hafte-
Thanks for your PM man, I will give let you know if I ever making it up your direction.
As for waterproofness in glue it is one of the main differences between titebond 1,2, and 3. 1 is not waterproof at all 2 is weather resistant and 3 is waterproof.
I just bought a gallon of titebond 2 (they were out of 3) but I am considering taking it back. My main motive was cost. You might get epoxy a lot cheaper than me but my epoxy (west systems) cost about 5x as much per gallon as wood glue.
I may just be using it wrong, but I have never had anything but bad experiences with gorilla glue and liquid nails. Other people swear by them but I can not make them work.
I would also think that the epoxy that the core get covered in during the layup process would waterproof it fairly well.
Would you mind elaborating on your uhmwpe bonding method. I think a lot of us would like to use it for our sidewalls but have been scared away by bond issues.
Thanks
Thanks for your PM man, I will give let you know if I ever making it up your direction.
As for waterproofness in glue it is one of the main differences between titebond 1,2, and 3. 1 is not waterproof at all 2 is weather resistant and 3 is waterproof.
I just bought a gallon of titebond 2 (they were out of 3) but I am considering taking it back. My main motive was cost. You might get epoxy a lot cheaper than me but my epoxy (west systems) cost about 5x as much per gallon as wood glue.
I may just be using it wrong, but I have never had anything but bad experiences with gorilla glue and liquid nails. Other people swear by them but I can not make them work.
I would also think that the epoxy that the core get covered in during the layup process would waterproof it fairly well.
Would you mind elaborating on your uhmwpe bonding method. I think a lot of us would like to use it for our sidewalls but have been scared away by bond issues.
Thanks
- Ben
Ben, this is going to be my first set of skis. The UHMWP that I have is the base material from snowboard supply, and it’s the “treated for bonding” stuff. What I was referring to was this thread http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=354 . I may have assumed too much about what others may be reading here in my statement. I guess I should also have said I have experience with MOST of the materials.
I am reluctant to use too many plastics, since most seem very good at repelling epoxy causing delams without proper preparation. I use plastic film and packing tape as poor mans release agent in some of my other projects. My plan is to use poly and dynel fabrics as tip spacers and wood side walls for now. I can lay the fabrics in during the rest of the lay-up so that they will be part of the matrix more so than trying to float in pieces of plastic. My apologies for any confusion.
As for gorilla glue. Spread it very thin on one piece. It does not take much to bond two surfaces together because of the foaming action. Then spray or wipe water on the other piece to wet it a bit. Put the two parts together and clamp with enough force to keep the foam from pushing them apart. Moisture seems to set the gorilla glue off and make it cure better. The thing I don’t like about it is that it’s messy if you use too much and sticks to everything, but the dried glue is kinder to my cutting tools.
My concern with wood glues all stem from past experiences when the outer coating/epoxy gets perforated causing water to migrate along the seams. It may be total over kill/paranoia on my part, but I don’t look at it as that big of a cost.
I currently buy epoxy here www.resinreasearch,net . They have four different stiffnesses, two hardeners, a surface agent that creates a better shine, and an X55 accelerator that is not listed on their site (I have not tried it yet). It is still 4-5 times more than 1 gallon of titebond. I use to use raka epoxies, but found that resin research is water clear and wets out better and every good UV stability. I was turned onto RR by the surfboard community and seems to work very well so far.
Sorry this is s long. Board at work
Hafte
I am reluctant to use too many plastics, since most seem very good at repelling epoxy causing delams without proper preparation. I use plastic film and packing tape as poor mans release agent in some of my other projects. My plan is to use poly and dynel fabrics as tip spacers and wood side walls for now. I can lay the fabrics in during the rest of the lay-up so that they will be part of the matrix more so than trying to float in pieces of plastic. My apologies for any confusion.
As for gorilla glue. Spread it very thin on one piece. It does not take much to bond two surfaces together because of the foaming action. Then spray or wipe water on the other piece to wet it a bit. Put the two parts together and clamp with enough force to keep the foam from pushing them apart. Moisture seems to set the gorilla glue off and make it cure better. The thing I don’t like about it is that it’s messy if you use too much and sticks to everything, but the dried glue is kinder to my cutting tools.
My concern with wood glues all stem from past experiences when the outer coating/epoxy gets perforated causing water to migrate along the seams. It may be total over kill/paranoia on my part, but I don’t look at it as that big of a cost.
I currently buy epoxy here www.resinreasearch,net . They have four different stiffnesses, two hardeners, a surface agent that creates a better shine, and an X55 accelerator that is not listed on their site (I have not tried it yet). It is still 4-5 times more than 1 gallon of titebond. I use to use raka epoxies, but found that resin research is water clear and wets out better and every good UV stability. I was turned onto RR by the surfboard community and seems to work very well so far.
Sorry this is s long. Board at work
Hafte