Ski Builders Forum

I haven't paid too much attention to ski bindings over the years, so I want to ask: How many people go through the effort to include inserts in skis for their bindings vs. how many people just drill and mount as usual afterwards?

The one pair of skis I made we did classic drill & mount afterwards mostly because my buddy had no idea which bindings he was gonna use until we were almost done But had I known, personally I would have tried to put some inserts in there. But I don't know if that's the snowboarder in my trying to apply the wrong technique.

If you do classic mounting, what guiding marks do you need on the finished ski? I think it's just the center of the effective edge, but I'd like to confirm that.

If you do inserts, how do you decide on the insert pattern? Is there a good one that works for a commonly used, adjustable (rental?) binding? Do you guys use adapter plates like I see at bindingfreedom.com? Or do you have a brand you personally love and you place inserts specifically for your favorite bindings and boot size?

I'm asking, of course, so I can get MonkeyCAM to place inserts for skis I can let people place random inserts all over the board relative to the center of the effective edge, but I'd like to make it easier than that. I.e., "Salomon, sole length 315mm, 1.5cm back from center".

Thanks!

Don't bother with inserts for skis. Just use good hardwood where the screws will go. Just drill and mount. If you really want inserts go with the binding freedom inserts sold by SVST.

As for marking. I put a line at the true waist of the ski and a center mark in case someone hand mounts with a paper template. But all binding jigs are self centering .

Some people choose to mount forward of the line to make a ski feel more turny, or back from the line to make a ski feel more surfy. Park guys like to center mount. Tele has its own preferences.

I don't use inserts either. My skis are designed to mount 50mm behind the true center of the effective edge. If I wanted to use inserts I'd probably use helicoils.

Hi Mike,

I quiver killer insert a lot of skis , so thats an M5 insert like a helicoil basically. Quite time consuming to outfit a pair of skis with a full set but once you get the hang of it things speed up.

My concern with placing inserts in skis is primarily with the accuracy of the core placement over the base to ensure end to end centering and alignment of the bindings.

MonkeyCAM precision should enable us to make sure that insert holes and rebates are precisely drilled and with the alignment dowels the inserts would be bang on.

To really make this a reality I would suggest getting the Binding Freedom templates accurately measured up and each binding model hole pattern dimensions into a MonkeyCAM binding database. By specifying the desired boot center line and the boot sole length and having MonkeyCAM compute the necessary offsets and adjustments you could do custom inserts to absolute precision.

Binding Freedom templates have to be scaled on my printer to 106% to be accurate enough compared to my steel ruler. The templates also have the length measurements enabling you to adjust the template for various boot sole lengths.

M5 inserts are available I have seen them.

This may not be necessary for all ski builders but may be worth considering for the long term.

Even just a CNC drilling aid for those with cnc to spot drill all the holes to a particular binding model and boot sole length would be awesome.

If you were to do this would Binding Freedom allow you to use their templates ? How could this be done without breaching any design patents or copyrights?

The more of this that can be open sourced the better!

cheers
Richard

I find the inserts to be mostly useless. They also make a remount difficult due to the huge holes. They are a good option for stripped holes though.

Heh, there's a basic terminology difference here which I think has confused things. For snowboards, we call these things "inserts" but they're really T-nuts built into the board. I agree this is confusing, and I honestly have no idea why we call them inserts in the snowboarding world

Assume everyplace I said "insert" in my original post I meant "T-nut placed into the ski during layup."

The biggest problem I can see with inserts is, unlike snowboards, every binding has a different screw pattern. Even bindings from the same manufacturer.
If you have a few pair of skis and want to use the same bindings I guess it might make sense to use QK or helicoil type inserts.
T-nut, layed up, inserts are just more problem than they would be worth.
Just screw em down, as vin says remounts will be way easier.

sam

Yea, looking thru the rather stunning array of hole patterns it looks like it would be rare someone would want to use t-nuts.

I'm gonna ensure MonkeyCAM can avoid cluttering up things with inserts when they're not necessary, and make sure we can mark the narrowest point as well as the center of the EE and overall board. I might also add in something to make it easy to cut your own drilling jigs... I actually made a drilling jig to make it easier to find snowboard inserts years ago which I'm still happy I have

I've made a few drill jigs out of clear plexiglass. Just match fore-aft placement and center marks, clamp to the ski and drill. I use my 3.6x9.5 to drill pilot holes, then remover the jig and drill to the correct depth for all holes.

Having a CNC make the jigs would be sweet. The only other issue with this would be that mount length is dependant on boot size.

I originally started using inserts in my skis because I thought I would have one pair of bindings and swap them between skis like daily.

In reality I've got a few sets of bindings, and have only swapped them a few times a season at most. I still continue to do inserts because my CNC also cuts the holes in the perfect spot - if I do it by hand, since I don't have real jigs, the holes only come out close enough. I also trust the inserts more than screws - I've never had a screw rip out, but its always possible, and I think I'd have to shatter a femur before one of these inserts would pull out.

It's only a few more dollars per ski, and maybe 5 minutes of extra work prior to layup (that saves probably 10 minutes after layup), so I still do it.

I put binding freedom inserts in most of my skis.
Primarily because when we travel to the nthn hemisphere we can take 4 pairs of skis without the bindings on them in one ski bag. Usually take a powder ski and an all mtn ski and change the bindings over as needed.
I also have a pair of skis with inserts for a marker duke and a marker griffon that I use for resort and touring.

I have nothing to add other than I've invested in a real jig from Marker.
Mounting hasn't been easier! (If using Marker bindings... )

Actually another good point - doing inserts does mean you are committed to a binding, or at least a brand if they use standard mounting across models.

For a long time I was using older Look Pivot bindings in all of my skis, but they were starting to get too old, so I bought some new Look Pivots. The toes were the same, but the mounting pattern for the heals changed slightly. For all new skis after that I used the new pattern, but I had one pair that sort of "bridged the gap" and I had to machine some adapter plates that you bolted to the ski, and then the bindings bolted to those plates. Worked fine, I just had a 1/4" rise on the heal.

If you gys dont know jigarex from pliny equipment is the way to go $350 will get you tue jig and almost all the plates you could need for many different bindings. Its badass.

Cool! I will get a Jigarex!