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Graphene

 
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skidesmond



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2283
Location: Western Mass, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Graphene Reply with quote

Graphene looks like it's going to be the next big thing used in skis. I started researching the stuff. This is what I've found:
1. For one it's stupid expensive so I'm wondering how much ski manufacturers are actually using. 1 gram iof powder is about $100.
2. It's 200 times stronger than steel.
3. In its normal state it's only 1 atom thick and a million sheets are only as thick as a human hair.
4. I've seen in powder and in a liquid suspension form.

Anyone know how graphene is being used for skis? I'm guessing it maybe added to the resin mix. But how much? For all I know a gram of graphene could be enough for multiple pairs of skis. Then again maybe it's only used in the resin in 1 or 2 layers of a ski and regular resin used for the remaining ski.

Anyone else know about graphene and how it's used?

Thanks
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chrismp



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 1251
Location: Vienna, Austria

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This video (albeit bicycle related) explains the use and advantages of graphene in composites pretty well: https://youtu.be/FaKl3OymFy4
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skidesmond



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2283
Location: Western Mass, USA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great video! Thanks Chris. Now, I need to get my hands on some 😉
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24Dave



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read it increases compressive strength of a laminate by 13% to 18%, but much more of an increase in strength after a tested laminate has had an impact. I'm not so sure that skis and boards are experiencing impacts on top side where this increase in compressive strength would be significant. On a race bike or jet turbine blade sure.

I would think graphene is a pointless addition to fiberglass or carbon innegra hybrids which already have a pretty strong resistance to compressive strength after having received an impact.
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skidesmond



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2283
Location: Western Mass, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I wondered if its was over kill to sell skis.
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24Dave



Joined: 03 Oct 2011
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is too far even for what I've been trying to do. I've been trying to think around ways to improve the compressive strength of real thin carbon layers on the deck side of splits. Another challenge with adding the nano-powders to improve resin and overall laminate toughness is that it already takes a bit of focused work to ensure full wet-out of Textreme or other tight uni directional layers and these powders are said to really thicken up resin and impede its flow through tighter flatter fabrics.

It seems like an additive that might not be able to be taken advantage of by our ranks with less sophisticated processes. At least that's what I gather from reading a few of the composite journals regularly.

If one were to use these thicker nano carbon-toughened resins in a more open weave fiberglass, wet out would not be a concern, but I don't believe that thicker fiberglass layers really have much of a problem with impacts or compression failures. So it is sort of a solution that isn't needed there.
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skidesmond



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2283
Location: Western Mass, USA

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounding more and more like magic dust. I'm sure it has its applications where it's very effective.
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motoman



Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Posts: 232
Location: Ukraine

PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know Head already use it in their products and argue that it's worth it.
If to argue from the point of view of the price, then it is appropriate to use it if you produce thousands of skies or snowboards. It is way to expensive. But I think it is derivative of time. In 5 years it will be as well distributed as carbon.
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gketcham



Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 98

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you ask me it is just another way every ski manufacturer uses Smoke and Mirrors to make customers buy their product. From being in the industry and talking to companies at SIA every year I have become very cynical to 'new technology' in skis.

I want to get into building skis professionally but I'm not sure I can deal with making up terms and things to sell skis. (Stepping down from soapbox realizing he didn't help the conversation at all).
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knightsofnii



Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1146
Location: NJ USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gketcham wrote:
If you ask me it is just another way every ski manufacturer uses Smoke and Mirrors to make customers buy their product. From being in the industry and talking to companies at SIA every year I have become very cynical to 'new technology' in skis.

I want to get into building skis professionally but I'm not sure I can deal with making up terms and things to sell skis. (Stepping down from soapbox realizing he didn't help the conversation at all).



DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!
You won the internet for the day Smile

haha, dealing with making up terms for the gimmicks is the best!!
Micrognarockamber, Doesn't Suck Technology,
Superior Lay Up Technology System Wink
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skidesmond



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2283
Location: Western Mass, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gketcham, that’s why I started this post. From what I’ve read so far, it’s so expensive I wonder how much Head uses. I haven't seen other big manufacturers advertise it in their skis yet. Can’t imagine it’s used in the entire ski but who knows.

It’s pretty awesome stuff but will the average skier ever actually realize it? Probably not, but they’ll have the latest and greatest from Head.

I’ve read they use it in the tips of some of their line of skis to cut swing weight, the latest catch phrase. Who swings their tips? Rhetorical question, I know back country skiers and off piste skiing it matters. But I see it in carving skis and if you’re carving your not swinging the tips.

I’m always looking for new and better stuff, but I think graphene will be out of the picture for me for now.
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mammuth



Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 261
Location: somewhere in the alps

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reminds me to an us brand ... always talking about how important and different epoxy is because he knows ... he comes from aerospace ... and that its a carbon board...

We cut up one board and guess what ... two tiny carbon strings inside ... LOL
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skidesmond



Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 2283
Location: Western Mass, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mammuth wrote:
Reminds me to an us brand ... always talking about how important and different epoxy is because he knows ... he comes from aerospace ... and that its a carbon board...

We cut up one board and guess what ... two tiny carbon strings inside ... LOL


Exactly! The public has no other way to know what’s real and what’s magic powder. And IMO even when it can be engineered and shown on paper/computer it s 20% this or that, can the average skier really feel the difference? Drop 20% of the weight in the ski tip and save maybe an 1/2 ounce if that. Who’s gonna know.
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mammuth



Joined: 28 Oct 2014
Posts: 261
Location: somewhere in the alps

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

... the people just carrying their skies from the car to the gondola and from there to the restaurant. Then weight matters Wink

(touring skis are a different story)
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gav wa



Joined: 18 Feb 2014
Posts: 339
Location: Perth

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its funny, the boards I've built with very basic layups, just glass top and bottom and a nice basic camber profile have always ridden the best. So smooth and fun to ride. People borrow them and really love them too.
In general i think most people over buy gear, but unfortunately it is sometimes hard to find a quality build basic tech stuff. You want higher end quality you get weird carbon stringers, silly implant quadratech insert areas, lifted adge tech etc.
For boards i found rossignol to be a good option but now their boards are full of wank factor too.
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