I did not find any vegetale fibers on sale on the web.
Eco-friendly Ski Contruction
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
More organic fibers.
Hemp
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/3 ... abric.html
Silk & cottons
http://www.silkconnection.com/
Bamboo This stuff looks promising, but have yet to try it.
See links in my post above
seb, BTW, thanks for the basalt source
Hafte
Hemp
http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/3 ... abric.html
Silk & cottons
http://www.silkconnection.com/
Bamboo This stuff looks promising, but have yet to try it.
See links in my post above
seb, BTW, thanks for the basalt source
Hafte
Ah, I fogot...
This summer I did a small test. I glued a piece of wood core (15cm X 5cm), juta fabric (plain 600g/m2), edge and base (polietilene, not yet found an eco alternative) using bone glue.
It looks quite solid. Not easy to delaminate.
Just have to find a substitute for the plastic base (maybe corn-based plastic? Or just hard wood) and the bio-ski will be there.
This summer I did a small test. I glued a piece of wood core (15cm X 5cm), juta fabric (plain 600g/m2), edge and base (polietilene, not yet found an eco alternative) using bone glue.
It looks quite solid. Not easy to delaminate.
Just have to find a substitute for the plastic base (maybe corn-based plastic? Or just hard wood) and the bio-ski will be there.
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MartinJern
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:27 pm
- Location: Sweden
davide, Im intrested in that bone glue...
When i renovated my house (eco-style, no syntetics and old building technics) i used a bone glue for making a sort of clay plaster for the walls, it was for the clay to hold up and not become powder again
it looked like brown pearls that you desove in hot water, and it smells kinda like cooked meat
is this the same? i cant really see that this stuf works for skibuilding so i doubt that its the same...
good luck on your eco-skis, great idee!
When i renovated my house (eco-style, no syntetics and old building technics) i used a bone glue for making a sort of clay plaster for the walls, it was for the clay to hold up and not become powder again
it looked like brown pearls that you desove in hot water, and it smells kinda like cooked meat
is this the same? i cant really see that this stuf works for skibuilding so i doubt that its the same...
good luck on your eco-skis, great idee!
to bond the woodcore there you could use wood-welding. nidecker snowboards are the first ones to use this method on one board. i somewhere read an article about woodwelding. it works somehow like this: by pressing two stripes of wood toghether and applying some vibration the wood gets warm because of the friction and somehow releases some chemicals that act like a glue and keep the parts together....if i remember right 
plywood freeride industries - go ply, ride wood!
ok, i just looked up some stuff
they call it "eco welding", a method developed by swiss universities of applied science. it is completely free of any chemicals - there is no need for glue. the method bases on friction welding technology: one part of the workpiece gets presse to the surface of the other while the other vibrates. by doing so the wooden fibres of the two pieces get connected to each other and stick together because of the lignin. this is the natural "glue" that holds together the cells in the woods.
the project startet in 1993 with first attempts using ultrasonic. 1999 they incorporated vibrations and rotation to the process. since 2001 they were into woodwelding with the use of thermo/duroplasts (maybe the glue as you named it). in 2002 they started with experiments about woodwelding without any glue.
they call it "eco welding", a method developed by swiss universities of applied science. it is completely free of any chemicals - there is no need for glue. the method bases on friction welding technology: one part of the workpiece gets presse to the surface of the other while the other vibrates. by doing so the wooden fibres of the two pieces get connected to each other and stick together because of the lignin. this is the natural "glue" that holds together the cells in the woods.
the project startet in 1993 with first attempts using ultrasonic. 1999 they incorporated vibrations and rotation to the process. since 2001 they were into woodwelding with the use of thermo/duroplasts (maybe the glue as you named it). in 2002 they started with experiments about woodwelding without any glue.
plywood freeride industries - go ply, ride wood!
I've been talking to a surfboard maker in the uk about bio resins.
There is a possibility of 97% bio resin that will work for ski builders.
Currently they have 2 in the works, one that requires UV light to set and the other needs 130 degrees Celcius to set. Both of these have real challanges when making a ski.
There is the posibility of a resin that dosen't require so much heat to set, but not perfected yet.
If I get anywhere with this enquiry I will let you all know.
There is a possibility of 97% bio resin that will work for ski builders.
Currently they have 2 in the works, one that requires UV light to set and the other needs 130 degrees Celcius to set. Both of these have real challanges when making a ski.
There is the posibility of a resin that dosen't require so much heat to set, but not perfected yet.
If I get anywhere with this enquiry I will let you all know.
wow!davide wrote:Ah, I fogot...
This summer I did a small test. I glued a piece of wood core (15cm X 5cm), juta fabric (plain 600g/m2), edge and base (polietilene, not yet found an eco alternative) using bone glue.
It looks quite solid. Not easy to delaminate.
Just have to find a substitute for the plastic base (maybe corn-based plastic? Or just hard wood) and the bio-ski will be there.
What is this bone glue you used? Where did you find this stuff? Is it easy to use?
I'm disappointed, because the guy with the basalt fabric do not ship overseas. I found another adress in Europe (Georgia), but not sure they will sell few meters of it. Bamboo fabric seems to be time consuming and pretty damn to use.
Hemp, silk and cottons fabrics... well... I'm not sure these are appropriated for skibuilding.
You can find basalt (any quantity) here: http://swiss-composite.ch/seb wrote:What is this bone glue you used? Where did you find this stuff? Is it easy to use?
I'm disappointed, because the guy with the basalt fabric do not ship overseas. I found another adress in Europe (Georgia), but not sure they will sell few meters of it. Bamboo fabric seems to be time consuming and pretty damn to use.
Hemp, silk and cottons fabrics... well... I'm not sure these are appropriated for skibuilding.
Bone glue is this one: http://www.fine-tools.com/G10008.htm
En francaise aussi: http://www.hmdiffusion.com/aoCCatalogue ... famille=84
It was not too difficult to use on a small piece, but on a full ski it will probably be a bit more tricky.
Specific Young modulus of vegetal fibers is fine but specific strength is about 1/3 than that of glass fiber. Maybe it is not a problem.
The other option is to use wood only: vertical core sandwiched between veneer layers at 0 and 90 degrees (or +45 and -45) for torsional
stiffness. A very old idea I have not yet tried.
The entire life-cycle needs to be considered. This applies to all products, and most people tend to have a difficult time understanding the concept. For example, organics are really popular right now - Levis has organic cotton jeans now, that are being promoted by many for being environmentally friendly. Consider, however, that they're made in Morocco (I think - point is that they're made overseas in an LDC). Also, cotton tends to have very large impacts - extreme water needs (look at Russia and ex-USSR's water problems due to cotton plantations). Products are shipped around the world, processed, often shipped somewhere else, processed some more, packaged then sent to retailers. The raw material is an organic, natural fibre, but likely has a much worse impact than a non-organic North American produced item.
Anyways, as it applies to skis, look at where all of your materials come from and who produces them. The life-cycle looks at the material from raw material extraction all the way through production and disposal. Sure basalt is 'natural' but so are carbon and glass. The basalt would be quarried (requires incredible amounts of energy). A lot of glass is recycled, however, which does not make it neutral at all, but probably the best option at the moment. Flax fibre may be useful in the future. High-end car manufacturers such as BMW are using it, as well as a road bike manufacturer from Belgium. It's really stiff though, and new, so there isn't a tonne of info on it, but it might be something to watch.
Objective bamboo information is pretty hard to find right now, even when browsing journal databases, because it is such a trendy alternative at the moment. I am inclined, however, to believe that it has a lot of benefits. Sure some plantations cut down areas of other habitat to grow the bamboo, but most wood is currently clear-cut. The difference is that Bamboo grows back quite quickly, so once a plantation is developed, it will provide resources for a very long time. Once a region is logged for conventional wood, though, it remains essentially useless as habitat or anything else for a very long time. Because it is produced using conventional agriculture practices (for anyone who doesn't know, this is the monoculture, pesticide/herbicide type of growing), however, soil degradation and salination may be a problem. Particularly in China, where a lot of bamboo timber originates, water problems could be pretty significant. Reputable organizations, such as the United States Green Building Council (USGBC), developer of the LEED rating system, does support bamboo use. Credits are given under Materials and Resources Credit 6 (LEED NC-1); bamboo is considered renewable. Certified wood also receives credit, as well as re-used or recycled material. A lot of Bamboo is certified as well, so it does have the support of various NGO's, supported by quite a bit of research. Just to complicate things, however, regional materials are preferable, and also receive LEED credit. Many believe that local is more important than, say organic. I also wonder how stiff a bamboo ski would be.
Ultimately, I don't have a definite formula for an ethical ski (I don't really think it's possible). Remember that by creating something, you will have an impact regardless. I think it'll be pretty tough to avoid the plastics; it's not necessary either. Reduce the impact of the other materials, particularly the core, then look at other aspects of your life if you want to lower your impact - see skis as a luxury if you would like, and focus on cutting down in other areas (don't give up on reducing the impacts of your skis though).
Anyways, as it applies to skis, look at where all of your materials come from and who produces them. The life-cycle looks at the material from raw material extraction all the way through production and disposal. Sure basalt is 'natural' but so are carbon and glass. The basalt would be quarried (requires incredible amounts of energy). A lot of glass is recycled, however, which does not make it neutral at all, but probably the best option at the moment. Flax fibre may be useful in the future. High-end car manufacturers such as BMW are using it, as well as a road bike manufacturer from Belgium. It's really stiff though, and new, so there isn't a tonne of info on it, but it might be something to watch.
Objective bamboo information is pretty hard to find right now, even when browsing journal databases, because it is such a trendy alternative at the moment. I am inclined, however, to believe that it has a lot of benefits. Sure some plantations cut down areas of other habitat to grow the bamboo, but most wood is currently clear-cut. The difference is that Bamboo grows back quite quickly, so once a plantation is developed, it will provide resources for a very long time. Once a region is logged for conventional wood, though, it remains essentially useless as habitat or anything else for a very long time. Because it is produced using conventional agriculture practices (for anyone who doesn't know, this is the monoculture, pesticide/herbicide type of growing), however, soil degradation and salination may be a problem. Particularly in China, where a lot of bamboo timber originates, water problems could be pretty significant. Reputable organizations, such as the United States Green Building Council (USGBC), developer of the LEED rating system, does support bamboo use. Credits are given under Materials and Resources Credit 6 (LEED NC-1); bamboo is considered renewable. Certified wood also receives credit, as well as re-used or recycled material. A lot of Bamboo is certified as well, so it does have the support of various NGO's, supported by quite a bit of research. Just to complicate things, however, regional materials are preferable, and also receive LEED credit. Many believe that local is more important than, say organic. I also wonder how stiff a bamboo ski would be.
Ultimately, I don't have a definite formula for an ethical ski (I don't really think it's possible). Remember that by creating something, you will have an impact regardless. I think it'll be pretty tough to avoid the plastics; it's not necessary either. Reduce the impact of the other materials, particularly the core, then look at other aspects of your life if you want to lower your impact - see skis as a luxury if you would like, and focus on cutting down in other areas (don't give up on reducing the impacts of your skis though).
Ya, I think reclaimed wood is definately the best option. There's a supplier of windfall and storm recovered materials near me that I think I'll check out today. I'll also be looking at an alternative to fibre board for the mold; it's called Kirei board. Not sure if it will work, but I'll see what I can find out. The working properties are supposed to be pretty good and it gets used for tables, cabinets, etc. so it should be pretty suitable, but I don't know about pricing.
The kirei is expensive and generally not a good alternative. Talked to a friend that purchases all the wood for a large hardwood company near me who gave me some good information on wood rating (FSC, etc.) as well as bamboo. The rating stuff is complicated, but basically every source kinda needs to be assessed on an individual basis (just because it has a fancy "eco" symbol beside it doesnt mean its good to go - and if it doesnt have one, its not necessarily any worse). Most of the anti-bamboo arguments id already thought of - china grown (shipped), manufactured (high emitting diesel factories, etc.) and so on. I had thought that the glues used were urea-formaldehyde free, which they are not. Not necessarily terrible, but not great either and I believe these glues are banned in California (other places will soon follow), so if you live there, I think you might not be able to get any.