ABS topsheet supply?

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mattman
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ABS topsheet supply?

Post by mattman »

Anyone know where to get ABS topsheet material? Preferable treated for bonding. I would like to use this instead of UHMW since its easier to heat form for cap skis...UHMW likes to shrink too! The only supplier I know of though is Crown and all they sell is UHMW.
hafte
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Post by hafte »

You might try these guys. I have not used them yet, but it looks like they have an online ordering. You would have to call to see if they will heat treat for bonding. They list all kinds of plastics in the catalog I have and on the web site.

Let us know how they treat you it you use them.

http://www.professionalplastics.com/cgi ... /sesent/00


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mattman
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Post by mattman »

thanks for the link...they have Formable Grade ABS that is rough on one side...thinnest sheet is .030"...i wanted .020" but at $20 for a 4' by 8' sheet, its too cheap to pass up!!!
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Post by hafte »

Best part for me is that they are local. I'm thinking of asking if they have the ability to flame treat their plastics. They seem to do variety of plastic manufacturing too.

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mattman
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Post by mattman »

Are you intending to have ABS flame treated from them? Have you tried their ABS for topsheets? I ordered a 4x8 sheet and am hoping the formable grade doesnt shatter like Kelvin's did on the AHMA BCs.
hafte
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Post by hafte »

If I did it would be for side walls and UHMWPE. At this point I have only made one set of skis and a teleboard, and I'm working the KISS principle. I have to work my way up to using plactics. I thought about ABS, but keep reading about how brittle it can be. Right now I'm still vac bagging and can cap stuff, so glass top sheets and wood side walls are where I'm at.

It looks like the formable grade ABS is treated for bonding already and should stick well. I have no idea how brittle it is. Let us know how it works for you.

Hafte
splat
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Post by splat »

Is this formable grade abs you guys are getting for thermoforming?
If it is, it has a polish on it that makes bonding very difficult. You'll have to sand it before the flambe'. Also drilling holes in it will increase bonding. There is some 2 side haircell and polyethylene coated abs that are more specific to resin bonding, but they are hard to get in single sheets.
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mattman
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Post by mattman »

I actually just recieved my abs sheets today. It IS formable grade and has one side shiny, one side haircell. Looks like the haircell can be made bondable easily. Its already rough, i might just solvent wash it and flame treat before pressing. My main concern is how durable it will turn out. I really have my heart set on using this on longboards.
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Post by G-man »

Hello mattman,

I've been experimenting with flame treating and bonding ABS. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I just can't get a good surface dyne level on the ABS. I can get pretty consistent levels in the upper 50's/lower 60's with UHMW, but when I use the same technique on ABS, I can't get above the mid 30's. Also, all of the actual bond tests that I've done have failed miserably. I solvent wash, abrade, solvent wash again, then flame treat.

By the way, the literature that I've read says that the dyne level of the bonded material should be about 10 points above the dyne level of the substrate before a good bond can result. The surface tension/dyne level of epoxy resin is 43, so you'd need to get the ABS surface treatment up at least 53. Also, dyne level testing is very inaccurate when testing on any surface that is not very smooth (shiny), so testing should be done on a piece that has not been abraded. If you get a successful surface treatment technique down, then transfer that technique to the abraded material. If you're just testing with water, I'd suggest that you do some flame testing and water surface tension tests on smooth material before you abrade and flame treat, and certainly before you actually press a ski.

Much reading that I've come across seems to indicate that ABS bonds more readily than UHMW, but I certainly haven't been ale to get it to work on the test pieces, so I'm not about to build a ski with it. I just thought I'd pass along my experience with ABS because you are getting ready to use it. I hope that you can get it to work, but I'd sure recommend doing some test samples first. Maybe someone that uses ABS successfully will post about what I've been doing wrong.

Good luck,

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mattman
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Post by mattman »

G-man: what was the finish on the Abs sheet before you started treating it? Ours is a haircell finish on one side, so its already rough. I was thinking about the plumbing treatments too...have you ever tried ABS primer from the hardware store? I dont know if it only works with abs cement, or if it would prep for epoxy too...thoughts?
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Post by G-man »

mattman,

I experimented with bond tests on the ABS with all kinds of surface treatments, including sandblasting. I tried to find an ABS solvent, but could only find PVC solvents... but, maybe I just didn't look in the right places. It seemed to me that using an appropriate solvent as an ABS adhesion promoter during lay-up could certainly improve bonding.

Regarding flame treating, I feel that the only way to get objective, consistent, and reproducible surface treatment results is to start with a smooth surface, and use real dyne level testing methods to assess the effectiveness of the flame treatment process. Anything else is basically guesswork and sometimes it may work out, but other times, it won't. Once you consistently get it down on a smooth surface, you can just transfer that technique to abraded surfaces. That's just my approach, though... different things work for different folks.

G-man
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Post by mattman »

From my research I have found that MEK is used as a solvent for ABS in solvent welding. So basically ABS can be made into a cement if mixed with MEK so that the ABS becomes a slurry...it solidifies when the solvent evaporates. If I brushed on a light layer of MEK on my ABS sheet, would this help adhesion, or as soon as the solvent evaporated would the sheet be even more "sealed off"?
I know Acetone works for solvent welding ABS also, but not as well as MEK.
G-man
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Post by G-man »

mattman,

Good information from your research. I'd say, give the MEK idea a whirl on some test pieces. That's the best way to test alternative approaches to a bonding problem... glue them up (I use a lap joint) and then break them apart. I made an adaption to a torque wrench to measure bond strength up to the point of bond failure. I've moved away from using ABS, at least for the time being.

G-man
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