Has anyone tried the epoxy from Mr. Fiberglass? It is less than half the price of West System, and claims to have the same quality and handling properties as the West System brand. Just wondering if they are full of B.S. or not. --GeoffMonkeyButt wrote:I was just wondering what sort of qualities one would look for in epoxy and if the stuff i am looking at will work. My skibuilding buddy has located a couple places
US Composites (Kit Number: EPOX-635413 - $48):
http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html
Mr. Epoxy (Kit Number: POX35413 - $54)
http://www.mrfiberglass.com/mrfiberglass_epoxy.html
Any thoughts? Comments? Concerns?
Lets talk about epoxy
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
West epoxy curing temperature less than 30 Centigrade ?!?!?
I'm from the UK; and having tracked down a distributor for these resins, I am tempted to go this route: because of availability of the materials, and the distributor seems very knowledgeable about composites albeit not skis.
However: they say that the epoxy should not be cured at over 30 Centigrade or it will weaken the structure once cured... and this is in the technical manuals, so this isn't a dippy sales rep saying this...
This seems to fly rather in the face of everything on here about curing at temperature and pressure.
Are the West epoxies sold to Europe the same as those in the States do you know ?
Certainly they seem to be made under license in the UK, mainly for boat building. the technical manual is available at wessex resins if you google ...:
Although they have all sorts of additives available to add to the epoxy to retard or accelerate its cure, clearly it is basically intended for use at warm but room temperature...
Any observations?
Do I heat away anyway, let it cure, then heat it later, or go find another epoxy? or indeed don't heat but just wait some weeks for full cure ?
This is for a DIY project, so time is not a problem; but I do want it to cure right; and avoid making some expensive dustbin fillings whist finding out which components/ methods not to use...
Thanks guys !
Jonathan
However: they say that the epoxy should not be cured at over 30 Centigrade or it will weaken the structure once cured... and this is in the technical manuals, so this isn't a dippy sales rep saying this...
This seems to fly rather in the face of everything on here about curing at temperature and pressure.
Are the West epoxies sold to Europe the same as those in the States do you know ?
Certainly they seem to be made under license in the UK, mainly for boat building. the technical manual is available at wessex resins if you google ...:
Although they have all sorts of additives available to add to the epoxy to retard or accelerate its cure, clearly it is basically intended for use at warm but room temperature...
Any observations?
Do I heat away anyway, let it cure, then heat it later, or go find another epoxy? or indeed don't heat but just wait some weeks for full cure ?
This is for a DIY project, so time is not a problem; but I do want it to cure right; and avoid making some expensive dustbin fillings whist finding out which components/ methods not to use...
Thanks guys !
Jonathan
Hi Jonnyhifi. I am also from the uk - back here at the moment also 
. I first used resin from http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/ with great sucsess. Curing at room temp in a vacuum press. Have also used L type resin ffrom www.r-g.de and West System.
. I first used resin from http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/ with great sucsess. Curing at room temp in a vacuum press. Have also used L type resin ffrom www.r-g.de and West System.
When I spoke with West Systems in North America, they advised me not to heat the epoxy as it would release potentially harmful gasses. I wasn't too concerned with this as I wear a chemical respirator and wouldn't hang around breathing in the air around my press, but I opted for another type of epoxy anyways. This probably doesn't help at all, but that was my experience with wanting to heat West Systems.
Epoxy resin West system in the uk: temps and pressures
Hi!
Thanks for the replies guys.
This morning I had a very helpful private email from Kelvin (one of the patron saints of Ski builders.. LOL) in response to a sales request, in which he said:
We have used West systems epoxy before and it is very good stuff. Our skis
have held up well. You probably won't get that much more bond strength by
heating a room temp cure epoxy, just speed up the cure time. You may want
to check grafsnowboard's forum (I believe they are based in the UK) or ask
on our forum for more UK specifics and suppliers.
Also in the UK I came across the West sytem through one of their distributors, CFS firbreglass (Cfs fibre glass 01209 821028 ) who have an extraordinary inventory of composite stuff, and were extremely helpful.
The manufacturer of West System resins (under license) in the UK is Wessex resins and adhesives ltd who phoned me back this morning, and their technical chap (Hamish) was extremlely knowledgeable and helpful; and they said that their systems woud fine in a ski application. They agreed that heating it would not be a good thing; until largely cured, and also cautioned against high pressures; saying that the epoxy is a structural material, unlike say a contact adhesive, so in fact if you squish a joint too hard, you can remove the epoxy to the point of the joint being no longer strong...
So... I think this advice sounds as though it could be quite universal in fact in regard to epoxies re pressure...
They seemed to say vaccuum forming was often preferred as it has the added advantage of removing entrapped air, which is a point I hadn't thought about.
They said that with their systems there will be no air dissolved in the resin components prior to curing; however you commonly get air entrapped in the components being joined if they are not completely wetted out, which can lead to weakening of the joint, by forming voids in the cured epoxy. This is another reason for not overpressuring the joint during cure: as increasing pressure brings the components closer together; squishes any voids, and hence maximises the surface area of any voids...
I'm beginning to think that the real advantage of the press is to form the shape of the core rather than to help the epoxy system, which implies that the best of both worlds would be to preform the shape of the core (and maybe associated components) (with no glue) prior to gluing; in the press at pressure and temperature, then as a second stage lay it all up with epoxy and cure it at lower temps (depending on the resin chosen of course), and minimimal pressure: simply enough to hold the layers together in the mold.
Any thoughts?
Jonathan
Thanks for the replies guys.
This morning I had a very helpful private email from Kelvin (one of the patron saints of Ski builders.. LOL) in response to a sales request, in which he said:
We have used West systems epoxy before and it is very good stuff. Our skis
have held up well. You probably won't get that much more bond strength by
heating a room temp cure epoxy, just speed up the cure time. You may want
to check grafsnowboard's forum (I believe they are based in the UK) or ask
on our forum for more UK specifics and suppliers.
Also in the UK I came across the West sytem through one of their distributors, CFS firbreglass (Cfs fibre glass 01209 821028 ) who have an extraordinary inventory of composite stuff, and were extremely helpful.
The manufacturer of West System resins (under license) in the UK is Wessex resins and adhesives ltd who phoned me back this morning, and their technical chap (Hamish) was extremlely knowledgeable and helpful; and they said that their systems woud fine in a ski application. They agreed that heating it would not be a good thing; until largely cured, and also cautioned against high pressures; saying that the epoxy is a structural material, unlike say a contact adhesive, so in fact if you squish a joint too hard, you can remove the epoxy to the point of the joint being no longer strong...
So... I think this advice sounds as though it could be quite universal in fact in regard to epoxies re pressure...
They seemed to say vaccuum forming was often preferred as it has the added advantage of removing entrapped air, which is a point I hadn't thought about.
They said that with their systems there will be no air dissolved in the resin components prior to curing; however you commonly get air entrapped in the components being joined if they are not completely wetted out, which can lead to weakening of the joint, by forming voids in the cured epoxy. This is another reason for not overpressuring the joint during cure: as increasing pressure brings the components closer together; squishes any voids, and hence maximises the surface area of any voids...
I'm beginning to think that the real advantage of the press is to form the shape of the core rather than to help the epoxy system, which implies that the best of both worlds would be to preform the shape of the core (and maybe associated components) (with no glue) prior to gluing; in the press at pressure and temperature, then as a second stage lay it all up with epoxy and cure it at lower temps (depending on the resin chosen of course), and minimimal pressure: simply enough to hold the layers together in the mold.
Any thoughts?
Jonathan
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squishmitten
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knightsofnii
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I've used Mr Fiberglass on the first two boards I built with my press.
Definitely stronger than the boards I built at ambient temp cure. I cured at 180 for half hour+ with the Mr Fiberglass.
A little more rubbery than the others.
In comparison to what i'm using now (qcm), more rubbery, slightly less lively, slightly heavier, similar strength. Quicker cure, seems to actually be a better bond so far but I like the properties of the QCM Better.
When you get to buying QCM by the gallons (3-5gal+), you'll find its not really much more expensive than mr. fiberglass
Definitely stronger than the boards I built at ambient temp cure. I cured at 180 for half hour+ with the Mr Fiberglass.
A little more rubbery than the others.
In comparison to what i'm using now (qcm), more rubbery, slightly less lively, slightly heavier, similar strength. Quicker cure, seems to actually be a better bond so far but I like the properties of the QCM Better.
When you get to buying QCM by the gallons (3-5gal+), you'll find its not really much more expensive than mr. fiberglass
Doug
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sir.orange
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what experiences did you make with uv- durabilty and the epoxy system mentioned?
the graphic layer of my skies will be a white sheet of cotton with black/grey printings on it laminated below a clear polycarbonate topsheet.
now i fear that the epoxy could get yellow with uv radiation in teh mountains...are there any epoxy systems that are extra durable in clearness?
the graphic layer of my skies will be a white sheet of cotton with black/grey printings on it laminated below a clear polycarbonate topsheet.
now i fear that the epoxy could get yellow with uv radiation in teh mountains...are there any epoxy systems that are extra durable in clearness?
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knightsofnii
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has anyone done this before with polycarbonate?
how does its bond hold up?
I would say try covering your graphic directly with some light fiberglass (4-6oz), your graphic will be visible right thru the glass once saturated with epoxy, and then cover that with a "peel ply" or some sheet of plastic that will not bond but will peel away after pressing.
then when done, finish the board as you would if it were a surfboard...ie sand, hotcoat, sand, finish coat, polish.
how does its bond hold up?
I would say try covering your graphic directly with some light fiberglass (4-6oz), your graphic will be visible right thru the glass once saturated with epoxy, and then cover that with a "peel ply" or some sheet of plastic that will not bond but will peel away after pressing.
then when done, finish the board as you would if it were a surfboard...ie sand, hotcoat, sand, finish coat, polish.
Doug
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sir.orange
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...because it should bond pretty well with epoxy and is very resistant.Damon wrote:Why polycarbonate? I bet that would be more susceptible to UV yellowing then the epoxy would be.
at boardbuildingsupply.eu they sell "duraclear" i think this is a polycarbonate, but there s nothing mentioned about uv durability.
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sir.orange
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like that idea, just a minute ago i found this resin which should be very uv resistant: http://shop.r-g.de/Epoxydharze/EP-Lamin ... -HT-2.htmlknightsofnii wrote: I would say try covering your graphic directly with some light fiberglass (4-6oz), your graphic will be visible right thru the glass once saturated with epoxy, and then cover that with a "peel ply" or some sheet of plastic that will not bond but will peel away after pressing.
what exactly is a "peel ply" it s pulled off afterwards, and leaves a structure??
i think i use that resin for the top layer (fabric), but i want to use another epoxy resin (because i still got a lot of it) for the core and the glass fabrics near the base. do you think it might cause any trouble to use two different systems at the same time? the whole thing will be a vacuumed cap-construction...so pretty sure the two systems will get contact near the edge. or is it better to vacuume every ski in two steps: first: base-rubber-glass-core second: "first"-graphics-upper layer with the uv durable ht 2 resin!??
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knightsofnii
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sir.orange
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i ll do a mock up using 2 different epoxy resins next days, after i got my materials package
another question: from my wood core upwards the lay up will be something like that: wood core - 800gr/sm triaxial glass - printed linen fabric - 100gr/sm glass fabric - peel ply(something out of nylon) - perforated release film - bleeder - plastic bag (i think we all know where to put the resin)....now the question: is it right to put a perforated release film between peel ply and bleeder??
another question: from my wood core upwards the lay up will be something like that: wood core - 800gr/sm triaxial glass - printed linen fabric - 100gr/sm glass fabric - peel ply(something out of nylon) - perforated release film - bleeder - plastic bag (i think we all know where to put the resin)....now the question: is it right to put a perforated release film between peel ply and bleeder??