rockered skis

mattym · Post by **mattym** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:09 pm

^ yeh thats it 25mm, perhaps 20mm for the lizzies?
That youtube vid is sick - exactly why i like the idea of skis like that. Im thinking 20-25mm back from true will be money on the hellbents too!!

Something like the lizzie, with a rocker and a little fatter would be sick!! Looks like the pollard pro is gonna be close to something like this. A rockered ski with an eliptical sidecut would be soooo sick for bc jibbing/shredding!!

plywood · Post by **plywood** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:17 am

yes, 20 for the elizabeths - but they are also shorter than tha sir francis. the lizzies are somwhere aboru 172 i think and the bacons 180 or so....(actually i`m on the pc without flashplayer so i can`t look it up)

i don`t get the point with the eliptical sidecut...what should this be good for? or what is the advantage of it, compared to a normal sidecut?
they say that it get`s you a snowboard-like jibby feeling - but what the heck is a snowboard-like feeling? i also snowboard and it doesn`t feel much different riding it if we just look at how the boards are built...of course riding it works different, but snowboards also have a normal sidecut etc., basically snowboards are wide skis

maybe with a tighter radius...but that`s it.

so, last week i had some time to draw a bit, and here`s the result. i think the thing with the camber-section and the rocker is the way i want to go.with the design of the ski i`m not yet confident. i`m not sure what i want to do there: sidecut like on my first ski so that i can really compare the differences between a rockered ski and a cambered one...or if i want to do a different shape - a shape that fits better for a rockered ski... or if the shape that fits best to a rockered ski is already the shape of my first ride

well, sorry for the big scan, but it has to be that big, otherwise you wouldn`t recognise anything

G-man · Post by **G-man** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:51 am

I'm definitely an 'old schooler', but this thread sure has been fun to follow. I'm now even planning on incorporating some of the new school designs into a near future pair of skis. These skis will mostly be designed as 'dedicated' soft snow skis... not so much for park riding, although I do make a somewhat embarrassing run through the terrain park now-and-again. One thing that I'm going to do on that pair of skis is... leave off the edges. Yep, you read it correctly. I just don't see too much reason to have and edge on a dedicated powder/soft snow ski (except for those occasional hard pack runs back to the lift). Mostly, I really want to have a chance to test out some of Davide's work regarding waxed versus non-waxed/finely scraped bases. I've never been able to get a finely scraped base on a ski that has a metal edge because the ski edge messes up the scraper metal edge. A dedicated soft snow ski seems like just the opportunity to give it a go. I think this ski would be great for the wet, mushy (and grabby) spring snow that we often get around here... good for testing out both the ride and the glide. (Hey, I'm a poet).

Anyway, fun thread. I'll keep watchin'.

G-man

mattym · Post by **mattym** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:51 am

Plywood - killing it again - cheers for sharing that drawing - its starting to take shape - i like your design!!!! Definately keep us updated as your progress continues.

Lizzies are 172, Bacons are 182. Just quickly on the eliptical sidecut - it enhances turning ability in deeper snow, and it also makes it easier to carve of jumps (ie. get a corked rotation). It obviously makes the ski much less usable if you want to be straightlining stuff and chargin big lines - but for bc jibbing, it would be fun. Here's what line say:

http://www.lineskis.com/#/skis/freestyl ... ment_story

So im sitting here at work and we just got the volkl and k2 catalogue for 2007/2008. The new Katana from Volkl, incorporates a "powder channel" which combines a swallow tail with the ability to ride switch! Still trying to work out exactly how that works but yeh - could be cool to check out. Was hoping to get a little more info on the mini-rocker on the seths - like some actual figures.

So I rode the pontoons again yesterday and I could write forever on them - but lets just say there was maybe 10cms of fresh snow, and I was skiing them mainly on groomed with some cut up soft snow on top (just to test out how they rode) and they were FUN!!

But yeh, Im hoping to get my hands on a pair of hellbents by the end of the season so I'll be able to give a little further information when the time comes. Even better if I could have a pair of my own made by then, but we'll see.

Oh and G-man, glad to hear your thinking of incorporating some of the new ideas into your skis - with your knowledge and ideas on the whole process I bet you'll churn out some pretty sick sticks.

Ill definately be interested to see how the ski with no edges goes - as a pure powder ski I bet it will be awesome - it would probably contribute even further to that surfy kind of feeling I was getting on the pontoons. I'll have to follow that closely because that could make for a seriously fun pow ski!!
For rockered park riding as well the edges obviously play a little bigger role. It would be awesome not to have edges for sliding rails and boxes - but i bet it would be scary taking off and landing jumps

mattym · Post by **mattym** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:14 am

Quick update - that powder channel i was talking about on the volkl Katana is the "butplug" concept endre was talking about in the fischer/salomon/hellbent thread. Its basically a removable piece that fits into the swallow tail to make it switch rideable!

Also liberty skis are using bamboo for cores next year, check this out:

http://thesnowlife.com/snow/component/o ... temId=8074

Looks like no sidewall and no cap either? As I said earlier, i'm thinking bamboo in the rockered ski, with camber underfoot, would be the ticket. Light, poppy, and not too stiff.

endre · Post by **endre** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:01 am

I talked to the Liberty people at ISPO, and from what I can remember right now they just use bamboo sidewalls, not cores (but I can very well be wrong here). And the buttplug of the katana is not removable, the Salomon rocker's is -I think..

Speaking of swords, I made Katana skis in 2003.. 3 years before Völkl!:)

mattym · Post by **mattym** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:51 pm

I have a couple of friends that ride for liberty and also help in design so ill hit them up and see what info i can get on them.

Are you sure the buttplug is not removable? What sense is it having a swallow tail then, if it is just plugged? The swallow tail could never be used as a swallow tail?!?! Maybe im missing something here haha

Nice work on the Katanas too - yours look sick!!

endre · Post by **endre** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:00 pm

I asked the guys in Völkl the same question..the plug is kind of bent upwards in the middle, so it lets some of the powder through. but I realy don't think it is a very big diference to a normal twin..

plywood · Post by **plywood** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:45 pm

well, the völkl guys had also a snowboard with such a buttplug. but there it was called a powder channel. also like a tunnel over the swallowtail.

i suppose that the sinking effect is not that big as on a normal swallowtail and it`s rideable switch.
but the better sinking is not the only effect of a normal swallowtail: with the swallowtail you destroy the torsion in the back of the ski. by this a ski should be easier to slide in the back. this effect could still be used, also with a buttplug.
and if we consider that powder acts a bit like water the powder channel could create a bit more running stability. not that much as a normal swallowtail, but sure a bit. so swallowtails are a very interesting option. on surfboards you say that a long and narrow swallowtail adds stability. in contrary a wide angled swallowtail gets you a quicker board because the flowing water gets broken on the "straight" edges, so it destroys the suction of the flowing water on the tail.
the narrower swallowtail somehow increases the suction and adds stability through this.
i`ve got the feeling that this effects also occur somehow while riding powder. not with that much influences, but maybe we should also consider it.

Chicagoskier11 · Post by **Chicagoskier11** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:43 pm

maybe this could help spur even more dialog about what sidecut goes best with a rockered (or not) powder ski. It's a classic apparently. I saw a picture of it in this months Outdoor magazine.

http://www.winterstick.com/swallowtail.php

notice the length, seems pretty long to me.

hafte · Post by **hafte** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:25 am

Back in the day these were “the” ride for a snowboard. They were made in Salt Lake. I still have my 150 round tail. Awesome ride…once you got yourself strapped on. The round tail is a similar design. Wide nose narrow tail no camber at all, a concave channel like a water ski in the bottom, no metal edges, and a skeg This was the early days of the outlaw snowboarder, so it was for powder only. They had the feel of a skateboard. Simple input from the ankles and a touch of lean and it would make a turn. Guys with the “new” burtons of the day had a very tough time with these, because they were working really hard to make the burtons turn. The same input on a winterstick was making it turning faster than they could keep up.

The tool I’m working on right now is for this exact type of board. I’m planning for a 135 cm effective edge and a 185 total length. Here are a couple of my preliminary drawings from snowcad. http://home.comcast.net/~mhafte/images/185stv5.JPG I still don’t like the look of this yet, but I’ll get it right. The tool will have camber and an easy steady rise for the tip. Just like my old round tail.

The other plan is for a long board similar to these from Pogo snowboards. http://www.pogo.biz/shop/product_catego ... anguage=de There is an English version of this I just couldn’t seem to get there today. Still looking at the 185 length only this board will have a good tail flip up while the swallow tail will be flat.

Hafte

Chicagoskier11 · Post by **Chicagoskier11** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:50 am

The cad design looks real good. I think I may have seen some of those long board designs in Montana. I hope someone here makes winterstick shaped skis. It isnt worth it for me to make another pair of powder specific skis given my location and limited skiing time. One of the fun things about making wild shape designs is knowing you will be the only one with that shape on the hill. No one had skis as wide as my second pair and it was fun to see people look down and wonder to themselves whether my skis were sweet or just goofy.

Back to rockered and sorry if i repeat other people's ideas since I have only skimmed the posts. I was watching a wakeboarding podcast the other day and a pro rider was unveiling his new ride. He chose a constant rocker throughout as apposed to the more popular models that have a flat spot in the middle. Of course the goal of this was to get maximum pop off the wake. I feel like this concept would translate well to snow. Why would you not want a constant rocker in the park? Would it really be harder to land with? Maybe if the tail rockered slightly less than the front (skis still center mounted) more landing stabilty could be achieved. Without a flat spot butters would flow from end to end smoother. I love spinning on the tips and feel like this design would benefit me. Using my imagined design, two skis put base to base (at the center and leaving the ends as far apart as the curve allows) would have only a small surface area touching. Again, sorry if i repeated views/ideas.

Rockered designs go well with water because the water can form around the shape. Rockered skis may be well suited in halfpipe since they flow with the pipe shape. Then again, they might not be able to load for takeoff. I am dying to try some of these skis to see where they perform best.

powdercow · Post by **powdercow** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:28 pm

Winterstick did some pretty amazing stuff through the 80’s and 90’s. I grew up riding on one of their boards and it’s still going strong. (On a related note I had a chance to get a swallowtail from one of their investors for $180 new, I passed and I am still kicking myself).
Chicago-
I think if you look at one of hafte’s earlier post he is designing a ski that looks like the closest I could think of interpreting a swallowtail over to a ski. I am really interested to hear how it performs especially setup tele. As for the idea of a continues rocker throughout the whole ski I think you would have an issue simple keeping the ski “tracking” in a straight line. It is possible you could learn how to drive such a ski but anything with rocker throughout is bound to be a niche ski (nothing wrong with that).

plywood · Post by **plywood** » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:31 pm

@chicagoskier
you`re right, with a fully rockered ski you had only a very small surface area touching the snow. and this is the problem.
it may spin and butter easy on hard snow, but its associated with a loss of control. this loss of control actually enables the better spinning and buttering.

the loss of control is too big than such a ski could be ridden every day in every conditions. so the way to success is pretty much a compromise between small surface area touching and stability. and that`s where the idea of a cambered and short middlesection with something between rocker and early rise came.

the short cambered section would create more stability than a fully rockered one. but on the other hand it would still butter better than a normal ski because of its shorter lenght of the contact surface.

for a powder-only ski i agree, rocker would be great. as you said, it works well with water and water does not that much differ from powder. but i personally want a ski which can be skied also on hard conditions and works well in powder. so we take the best from both and mix it up.

mattym · Post by **mattym** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:18 pm

so i finally rode the hellbents and the seths today!!!!!
Soooo epic, they are both amazing skis!!
We had fresh pow to ski in, some good natural hits on the way down, and a rail park - so i got to try them in all diff ways.
The Hellbents are just mental, they tear through pow and chop, and butter sooo easily. They are easy to spin and are awesome, like incredible for pow landings!!!!
The seth is for those who still like some camber. It has camber underfoot and around 15cm or so of early rise in tips and tails. This ski was money!! Had it been a little fatter maybe with a little more agressive rocker, i would absolutely love it!! As far as single quiver skis go, this is the ticket!!!
It handled everything so sweet - didn't charge the deep quite as crazily as the hellbents but it really held on at high speeds and what not.
Im buying hellbents asap, and taking some ideas from both when i eventually get to press a pair

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rockered skis